Tracy is the CEO and designer extraordinaire behind WeddingLovely. She has over seven years of experience designing and building websites, with extensive experience in SEO, analytics, and multivariate testing. Her intense desire to simplify the wedding planning process led her to learn programming and launch Wedding Invite Love, the first WeddingLovely property, in January of 2010.
Click to tweet: Fire Nation, Tracy shares her incredible journey on EntrepreneurOnFire today!
- “Never give up.” – Unknown click to tweet!
- Tracy had a great idea, found an enthusiastic co-founder, and got an interview with Y-Combinator! Find out how it all fell apart.
Entrepreneurial AHA Moment
- Tracy reveals a truly special AHA moment. It happened recently, and it changed the course of WeddingLovely… for the better.
- Many weddings these days are all about extravagance, debt, and stress. Tracey’s dream is to take that experience and change it from the ground up. Let’s make weddings fun again… and affordable!
Small Business Resource
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Best Business Book
- Founders at work by Jessica Livingston
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John Lee Dumas: Okay. Let’s get started. I am simply electrified to introduce my guest today, Tracy Osborn. Tracy, are you prepared to ignite?
Tracy Osborn: [Laughs] Yes, I am.
John Lee Dumas: Awesome! Tracy is the CEO and designer extraordinaire behind WeddingLovely. She has over seven years of experience designing and building websites with extensive experience in SEO, analytics and multivariate testing. Her intense desire to simplify the wedding planning process led her to learn programming and launch WeddingInviteLove, the first WeddingLovely property, in January of 2010.
I’ve given Fire Nation a little overview, Tracy. Why don’t you take it from here and tell us a little more about who you are and what you do?
Tracy Osborn: Sure. Well, like you mentioned, I was a designer before I decided to learn programming, and essentially, WeddingInviteLove was my side project. That was my test to see if I could learn Django and Python programming. So over the last year-and-a-half, that side project, instead of one wedding invitation designer directory, it’s grown into five different directories spanning five different wedding verticals.
We just launched our second product, our second major product other than the directory, which is our online wedding planning application, just about a month ago. So it’s been a really nice journey. I actually programmed WeddingLovely.com, the planning application, myself. So I’m in this like kind of fine little spot where I’m not sure whether I’m a designer or a programmer, or basically doing a bit of everything, and it’s really, really awesome.
John Lee Dumas: You’re a renaissance woman. That’s great.
Tracy Osborn: [Laughs] It’s really, really fun.
John Lee Dumas: So listen, Tracy. We’re going to go into our first topic here, which is the success quote. At EntrepreneurOnFire, we really like to get the show off and running with a little motivation, and that’s the success quote. So Fire Nation, we’re standing by. We’re looking forward to what you have for us. What do you have for us today?
Tracy Osborn: I mean essentially it’s “never give up.” Many people have had different variations of this of just keep swimming or whatnot, but it’s one of the most important things that I think any entrepreneur should know, especially jumping into their first startup, because yes, you kind of implicitly know there’s going to be good days and there’s going to be bad days, but I don’t think anyone is prepared for the kind of rollercoaster that happens.
That rollercoaster, the ups and downs can be day-to-day. It can be quite exciting, and you ought to remember that whenever you’re at the bottom of that rollercoaster ride. When you’ve hit the bottom and you’re kind of like, “Oh God! What’s going on?” That you should always keep to yourself that you can never ever give up because the next day, it could be the higher the rollercoaster is. You have no idea what’s going to happen.
John Lee Dumas: I love the simplicity of that quote because within simplicity lies beauty and truth. I have a lot entrepreneurs come on the show, and I do love long quotes, and some of their quotes are literally soliloquys. They just go on and on. Then at the end, they say who it’s attributed by. Then we spend the next 5 or 10 minutes kind of dissecting each part of that quote.
Tracy Osborn: [Laughs]
John Lee Dumas: That’s a lot of fun, and I really enjoy doing that, but I also enjoy just never give up. Three words. That might actually be the oldest success quote ever. It really could be.
Tracy Osborn: I love simplicity. I’m really passionate about trying to talk to people about learning programming and launching their first startup and seeing how things go or just launching a side project and seeing where it goes. I mean really, never give up. Everyone thinks they know it until they’re in the trenches [Laughs]. And then it really gets tested.
John Lee Dumas: I love it. I can just truly picture like a little cave boy coming home after a night of hunting. He has nothing to show for it, and his dad looks at him and just goes, “Son, never give up!”
Tracy Osborn: [Laughs] Well, [Unintelligible] Galaxy Quest said “Never give up, never surrender!”
John Lee Dumas: [Laughs]
Tracy Osborn: That’s just my favorite movie ever.
John Lee Dumas: Well, there you go. We’re going both spectrums. We’re going way in the past and way into the future.
Tracy Osborn: Yes.
John Lee Dumas: So listen, Tracy. We like to kind of drill it down to the ground level too. Give us a quick example of how you have recently used the success quote “never give up.”
Tracy Osborn: Well, I’m going to say that, like I said, we just launched our second product, which is WeddingLovely.com. Before, we were primarily looking at wedding vendors and brides with user directories, but the wedding vendors are really our true customers. So when launching this wedding planning application, we kind of shifted half of our focus to now brides and grooms planning their wedding. I can say that it has been a challenge. It’s been a really, really fun challenge because I didn’t expect the different needs between these two customer sets.
So the last month has been a lot of talking about customers and working on features, and a lot of people saying, “This is what I don’t like,” which can be very discouraging. But I’ve been trying to take those this is what we don’t like, those pieces of feedback, and make them into, “Alright. Here’s how we’re going to fix it and here’s how we’re going to make things better and here’s how we’re going to make things better for this customer and make them happier overall.” So it’s really great to have a new product out, but it’s been very frustrating just making sure that we have the right product out now that we’re talking about customers.
So this last month has been kind of like never give up. No worries about how frustrating it can be and how much bad feedback you could get because you just got to weigh in to that data. You can’t have everything perfect. It has been working now. We just launched a couple new features they’ve been asking actually yesterday. So things are definitely looking a lot better.
John Lee Dumas: Splendid! Well, thank you for being so specific there as to how you have applied that quote to your everyday life. We’ll use that to transition to our next topic, which is failure. As an entrepreneur, we have all failed at some point in our journey, and we don’t necessarily have to define it as a failure, but we’ve had challenges and obstacles that we’ve come across. We’ve really had to just figure out if we are up to this challenge. You’ve obviously had a journey as an entrepreneur. Can you take us through a moment where you have failed or you have come up against an obstacle that you really truly had to persevere?
Tracy Osborn: Sure. The first thing that came to mind is when I first started this journey, I first said to myself that I wanted to start a startup and go in the wedding industry. I was like, “I’m a designer. I need to find a cofounder because I don’t know how to code.” So there was this process of a good six months where I was literally interviewing cofounders. Talking to people that people recommended and finding cofounders and doing projects with them, and basically narrowing it down to one person where we’re like we’re going to cofound a startup together.
We really applied to Y Combinator of course, and we actually got an interview, but that whole process was kind of [wrong] because him and I had not worked together really beforehand. Then over like the next two months or so before the interview happened, we realized that we were not the right people to work together because we rushed that cofounding relationship too fast and jumped into it too fast.
So we got the Y Combinator interview, we didn’t get into Y Combinator, and then at that moment we were like, this isn’t working, and we split up. That’s what actually led me to learn programming. I mean I wanted to talk to people, a lot of people who were trying to find cofounders, and there’s so many like these meet-ups and there’s conferences and they’re always like, “I have to find a cofounder and I want to go to them,” and they’d be like, “It’s okay. It’s actually a lot faster to learn programming.” It’s scary. It’s like a whole different mindset, but there’s a lot of shortcuts you can take.
So basically, my biggest failure was not listening to this. Like, oh, I could do it myself, but following this path of, oh, I have to find a cofounder, which delayed the start of my startup by a good six months.
John Lee Dumas: That was very specific. I really love how you just painted that picture. I could really see you meeting this cofounder. The excitement was there, you were building together. Then the Y Combinator interview happened and that just kind of escalated even more, and then not everybody clicks personality-wise and you guys realized that. The Y Combinator interview did not obviously go well. You did not get accepted. Then you decided to move different ways, but you yourself decided to keep your vision and move forward. That’s a great lesson and I really appreciate the lesson that you did share with us. Can you pull out a different specific lesson that you learned from that whole experience?
Tracy Osborn: What prevented me from jumping into doing a startup and learning programming is that I was like I always told myself I didn’t have the skills to do so. I don’t have marketing skills, I don’t have sales skills, I don’t have programming skills. I was a designer. It’s like the biggest lesson is that you learn as you go. No matter what, that you’re going to learn so much as a startup founder. The best way to learn these things is on the fly, in the trenches, working on the startup at the moment, figuring out what you need at the moment and figuring it out.
That lesson, once I learned it, it made everything so much easier because when you get a new challenge, and then it would be like, okay, here’s a challenge. I don’t know how to fix it yet, but I’ll figure it out. Trying to get that mentality in has been so helpful.
John Lee Dumas: Okay. So we’re going to move forward now into the next topic because you’ve had this failure with cofounding and that just not working out originally. You moved forward, you learned from that. Then you continued to learn from other things that you were doing and having these little aha moments, which I’m sure were happening for you every day, every week, every month that were inspiring you, they were moving you forward, they were kind of helping you when you had those setbacks because programming is very difficult and trying to do this on your own, and then having potentially bringing on another cofounder.
I’m sure you had these little aha moments all the time that really were inspirational to you and instrumental in propelling you forward through the tough times. Can you tell us about a specific aha moment that you had when you had moved on from your first cofounder and you were just continuing to push forward with your business?
Tracy Osborn: Yes. The biggest one actually has been recent. So like I said, I launched WeddingInviteLove. I learned programming and launched it a little over a year, and I got into [Unintelligible] as well during this year. I was just working on the directory side. Then programming-wise, I had launched the first directory, but the rest of the directories are essentially the same code.
The biggest aha moment for me just overall was when we started working on the second product. Again, that was the one that I, as a newbie programmer, I brought a cofounder on. She’s an engineer, but she was working on something different and more important for the business. So I started working on this new project, this planning application. So it was essentially my second programming project ever, if you ignore the directory clones.
I got to say that if you’re trying to learn something new, you have to get to the second iteration of what you’re trying to learn because I started working on this new programming project and there was like this huge aha moment that suddenly I realized how much I had learned between doing my first project, doing that first directory versus working on the second project. It was amazing and it was so much fun to program this new project and realizing how far we’ve come and how easier things were, and when errors happen, how much
So that’s another thing when people try to quicker it was to figure out what was going on and how I could fix it. Like it was amazing. program. It’s just like just try to get to your second project. Get through that first one and get it out there and get it launched because you’re going to learn so much from that, and then the second one is just going to be so much easier.
John Lee Dumas: That makes so much sense, and I just really see the validity of having to fail. You’re kind of encouraging what I like to call “fail faster.” Really get out there, throw yourself under the bus, and just work, work, fail, fail, fail. And then when the time is right, you’re going to take that next step forward and the next iteration could truly be successful.
Tracy Osborn: Failure is the best you do and I’m a huge proponent of failing fast. I mean when I launched WeddingInviteLove, I literally learned programming and launched it in six weeks because I nailed it down to the MBP and it was very, very rough and very, very small, but I got it out there because I wanted to see whether it failed or not. I find so many people out there who delay on launching their projects or doing something because they’re afraid of failure, but essentially not launching. I have a friend who hasn’t launched his project in four years. I keep telling him, that’s essentially like – it’s harsh, but he’s essentially been failing for four years because it’s not even out there. So he can’t be afraid of failure because he’s going through it right now.
John Lee Dumas: True. I had a past guest and he said something that really resonated with me. He said, “It’s my job to fail every day,” and I truly took that to heart. At EntrepreneurOnFire, I fail every day in some way, shape or form, but because of that, I’m improving every single day in some way, shape or form.
So I do embrace that failure. I make sure that my virtual assistants embrace their failures because they’re still learning and they’re still growing, and if we’re not failing as a company, as a business, then we’re truly not getting out there and testing the limits and testing our boundaries like we should be. Give us an example of where you really tested the boundaries of your company, WeddingLovely, and how that didn’t backfire. That’s not a good word, but how that obviously didn’t work out to the best of your abilities at that moment.
Tracy Osborn: Sure. I went to the 500 Startups Incubator, and obviously at demo day you want to have a product. A new product, a very exciting product, so you can raise that money. I went forward with this idea of doing wedding planning over an email newsletter, which is not necessarily a bad idea. But we rushed it. Well, me. It was still just me at this moment. I kind of rushed it to get it out for demo day, and of course at demo day it was like hype, hype, hype. How amazing this is going to be and how wonderful it’s going to be.
This is what led to the second product, this full online wedding planning application because what we learned is that it just didn’t take off. People weren’t really interested in wedding planning. Getting wedding planning over email because they want something more interactive. They want something really more customized.
So it was like a good few months of hyping this newsletter product and going through demo day with it, and then as soon as demo day was over, kind of taking a step back and be like, okay, this is actually not working at all, and then moving forward with something that would work a lot better, based on what I learned.
John Lee Dumas: Take us into demo day right now.
Tracy Osborn: [Laughs]
John Lee Dumas: This is such an intriguing and interesting facet of an entrepreneur’s life that the listeners just crave for. Take us to that day. Let us hear some specific feedback that you got that you felt was extremely valuable.
Tracy Osborn: Oh gosh! Demo day was – and this is also again, as a designer. The traditional marketer or hacker is always like the person programming and the person who’s the hustler, and I kind of was in between these two worlds. So I had to learn how to hack in order to launch the company, and then how to hustle and how to go up on stage and in four minutes, get people really excited about what I’m building. I’m trying to remember the feedback from demo day because it was a little long ago [Laughs].
I mean, I don’t remember quite was the feedback was, but I would say what I learned from demo day, learned in talking to these entrepreneurs, is that A, it’s not a cure all. You could pitch and be really amazing and everyone gets really excited about your product and you talk to a lot of people and they’re giving you really great feedback, and they’re like, “Okay, I’d love to work with you.” Then afterwards, you start calling them and they’re like, “Oh, we’re interested in this other person instead.”
The day itself is very magical, but the day after can be quite eye-opening. Then in terms of feedback – actually, I just remembered this piece of feedback [Unintelligible] that newsletter product that I was specifically pitching, and a lot of people were like, well, how are you going to get customers? It’s a very obvious piece of feedback, and you can’t just say, “Oh, social media, SEO and virality.” You can’t just say that. You have to have specifics and a way of like hacking the system, and I didn’t have a good response for that. I should have, but I didn’t. A lot of that had to do with the fact that the product itself wasn’t the right product at the moment. Yes, that’s one thing I remember from that day.
John Lee Dumas: Thank you for sharing that. That really brought us down into that day, and I can just kind of picture people up on stage, their four minutes, getting peppered with questions, promises are made. Then the next great thing comes along, and they’re like, “Oh my God, you’re already yesterday’s news.” It’s such a quick and fast-paced world that demo day is just probably even just a greater example of the fast forward button.
Tracy Osborn: Yes.
John Lee Dumas: So Tracy, have you had an I’ve made it moment?
Tracy Osborn: No, not yet. I’m still working on it. I mean every day is I love what I’m working on. I love talking to people and sometimes I get feedback from people like, “Oh, that’s really awesome. Is it still working?” In my mind, I only have this road ahead of me. I don’t know if that road will ever end, but I’m just going to keep traveling down that road, and I don’t think I’ll ever have an “okay, I’ve made it” moment because there’s always ways to expand and grow bigger.
John Lee Dumas: That’s exactly what EntrepreneurOnFire is all about. It’s about the journey. It’s not about the destination because once you’ve reached that destination, I definitely always encourage people, entrepreneurs, to take a step back, take a deep breath and appreciate how far you’ve come and that you’ve achieved that goal, and now it’s time to set that goal a little higher.
Tracy Osborn: Yes. Definitely.
John Lee Dumas: So Tracy, let’s move into our next topic now. This is current business. You’re rocking and rolling. You have a lot of things going on. You’re failing every day, which is a great thing. Which means that you’re improving every day, which is also a great thing. What’s one thing that’s really exciting you about your business today?
Tracy Osborn: The thing I love most about working on a startup is problem solving. It’s kind of what I liked in design because the way I felt about design was I was essentially problem solving with page and working towards a goal of getting people to click on a button. In programming, obviously problem solving in getting something to work. Now, we’re at this aspect of business with this launch of this product where the problem solving is what is our conversion rate and how can we get that conversion rate higher? What’s our bounce rate? Why aren’t people giving this feedback? Why aren’t people giving this good feedback? This is like truly the most exciting, is just we have this product out, and now it’s just figuring out this information, figuring out what these problems are, and every problem that we fixed, this product is going to get better.
So I’m not necessarily doing a lot of programming. I’m not necessarily doing a lot of marketing. It’s just a lot of problem solving right now, and I love it. It’s really, really fun, and it’s the reason why back in the day – I haven’t done A/B testing recently, and I cannot wait to do it because I love A/B testing. You get to see exactly how something works and exactly how this new solution will fix this problem. It’s really, really exciting.
John Lee Dumas: Great! Let me give an example of how I view A/B testing just so the listeners have a full grasp of how A, I view and use it in my business, and I’d love to hear about how you use it in your business. So with EntrepreneurOnFire, I’m always A/B testing, or another word for that would be split testing where I’m trying different themes or placements or just different copy or things along those lines to see really what is converting the best, what’s resonating the best, what’s really being received the best by my target audience, my listeners here at Fire Nation. How would you describe your version of A/B testing?
Tracy Osborn: I mean essentially, it’s always tweaking both design because you’re going to be tweaking the UX of how people go through a product. Then UX also adheres to the content. So what kind of content, what kind of motivation you have for your customer to go through your product and do the steps you want them to do.
So a lot of the big things right now has been a registration flow because we have a multistep registration flow for the wedding planning product. People sign up with their user name and password, and then we have to know some basic details about their wedding. So what’s their name and their spouse’s name? When are they getting married? Then we also have a free trial so we definitely go through a credit card screen to sign up for our free trial. So it’s a multipage walkthrough.
So right now we’re testing specifically the copy on that page to make it exciting and make it worth it for people to sign up. But also the design of the page. Where are the buttons? What color are the buttons? How are these form fields laid out so it makes it easier to go through them? All of these little tests are going to make the entire registration flow a lot easier to go through, and that overall is going to affect our revenue.
John Lee Dumas: I love it, and I just love the fact that when I was able to book this interview with you, I really didn’t know what I was going to get at first. I didn’t know if I was going to get some Jennifer Lopez converted wedding planner cum highfalutin startup or whatever now, but you really have the lingo, you really have been through the ringer. You understand programming, you understand conversions. You use words like UX, which is user experience for the listeners out there that didn’t know that. So I just really am enjoying having you on the show and just really hearing about this side of the business, and it just really one of those things where you just really never know who’s behind what company.
Tracy Osborn: Especially when you look at the wedding industry [Laughs]. It’s a whole little industry on its own. It can be quite crazy.
John Lee Dumas: Oh, I would say it’s definitely quite crazy. So Tracy, what is the vision you have for the future of WeddingLovely?
Tracy Osborn: My overall goal – and it’s rather ambitious – I said the wedding industry can be quite crazy. It’s literally the wedding industry is crazy, and I’m personally not a fan of the consumerism. I understand that’s how these wedding companies make money, is by promoting products and promoting ads and getting people to buy and creating these $20,000.00 to $40,000.00 weddings. I would love to have a startup that helps people have weddings that are less about the products and more about the love and the party and bringing them friends and families around them, and helping them understand that they don’t necessarily have to buy all the things, but instead, work to figure out what’s really important to them. Not necessarily what society says should be important to them. Then help them have that wedding for themselves.
John Lee Dumas: Well, I truly feel that you have a niche because I just know right now how the wedding industry stands. It can be so stressful, so overbearing, and it starts off with all the best intentions in the world for the bride-to-be and the mother who’s helping her plan, and then it just turns into an absolute nightmare when it comes to how expensive things are, how much debt people are going into, and just the extravagance of the whole thing.
Tracy Osborn: Yes. I mean what we’re doing a little bit different with WeddingLovely.com, the planning application, is that it’s actually a paid for product. That’s because we are giving suggestions for people to how we think that would help them plan their wedding, and I want those suggestions to be completely unbiased. No advertising within the product, which is very different in the wedding industry. So there’s no advertising. The suggestions are completely from our true heart where we think those suggestions should be, and that’s the way we make revenue from our product because the people will pay for it. It’s different.
There has been some hesitation on the side of brides because they want obviously free products. So part of our challenge is just emphasizing to them that this is allowing us to give the best suggestions and the best kind of product free from the typical wedding advertising industry.
John Lee Dumas: Love it. Tracy, we’re now going to move into my favorite part of the show. We’re going to enter the Lightning Round. This is where I provide you with a series of questions, and you come back at us with amazing and mind-blowing answers. Does that sound like a plan?
Tracy Osborn: [Laughs] That sounds very challenging.
John Lee Dumas: [Laughs] This will not be worse than demo day, I promise.
Tracy Osborn: [Laughs] That’s pretty challenging itself.
John Lee Dumas: [Laughs] What was the number one thing holding you back from becoming an entrepreneur?
Tracy Osborn: Like I mentioned before, the number one thing was not understanding what I could do, and if I don’t know something, how fast I could learn it. So physically, at the time, programming and building my own product. It was just fear of the unknown.
John Lee Dumas: What is the best business advice that you ever received?
Tracy Osborn: Mistakes are a good thing. Mistakes will make your business better. You’ll learn faster. You can fix the mistakes and make customers enjoy your product even more than before the mistake happened. So it’s simply mistakes are a very good thing to make.
John Lee Dumas: What is something that’s working for you or your business right now?
Tracy Osborn: Being in the California bay area, that was kind of cliché, but the opportunities around us of being in the 500 Startups Incubator, meet-ups, there’s wedding things going on, there’s design things going on, there’s programming things going on. One of the biggest things I think is having a community around you of people you’ve talked to, and being in this area has been the most helpful place to be.
John Lee Dumas: You know your way around the Internet. Do you have an Internet resource like an Evernote that you live by, that you love, that you would recommend to our listeners?
Tracy Osborn: This might be a little weird, but I will say Twitter. When I was learning programming, I followed a bunch of people who are Django and Python programmers. It’s amazing how much people will help you, even if they don’t know you, if you just give them short, sweet little tiny questions which Twitter kind of forces you to do. I love Twitter, and the Twitter community, People Programming for Entrepreneurs, has been immensely helpful, especially at creating contacts with people I don’t know and finding people out there who are willing to help me when I have trouble.
John Lee Dumas: What’s the best business book that you’ve read in the last six months?
Tracy Osborn: I’m actually just rereading it again. Founders at Work by Jessica Livingston. I love this book. It’s just great to hear stories of other people and realizing that sometimes there’s a lot of ups and downs from these great entrepreneurs, and reading about that makes things a lot more easier to grasp.
John Lee Dumas: Well, great, because I’m trying to provide the audio version of that EntrepreneurOnFire.
Tracy Osborn: Awesome!
John Lee Dumas: Tracy, this last question is my favorite. It’s kind of a tricky one, so definitely take your time and digest it before you answer. If you woke up tomorrow morning and you still had all the experience, knowledge and money that you currently have today, but your business had completely disappeared and you are forced to start with a clean slate and something at least a little different. This is a situation that many of our listeners find themselves in today. What would you do?
Tracy Osborn: Honestly, I would put down the computer and go on a backpacking trip. Get away from the electronics and the bay area and the people and programmers and everything. Just be out in the wilderness alone. This is already my plan if WeddingLovely disappears one day. Then spend that time thinking about what’s really important to me and what I want to achieve in life, and perhaps start making that plan. But really important to me to do, if everything disappeared and how to figure out what next to do, is to get myself away from my current environment and get away from computers and whatnot, and then just take the time to think about that.
John Lee Dumas: I love it. That was so specific and you painted a great picture there. I was kind of picturing you at the top of Machu Picchu. Is that far off?
Tracy Osborn: [Laughs] I would love to go there. I haven’t though. Not yet.
John Lee Dumas: So Tracy, you’ve given us some great actionable advice, and we are all better for it. Give Fire Nation one last parting piece of guidance, then give yourself a plug, and then we’ll say goodbye.
Tracy Osborn: Oh, a parting piece of guidance? I know I’ve repeated it a lot, but it’s really important to me. Just never give up and make mistakes, and just keep moving forward. Just get projects out there as fast as – I’m going to give a lot of advice. Get every piece out there as fast as possible and start working with your customers.
Then I’ll plug myself. I’m Tracy with WeddingLovely. I want to make weddings easier and make wedding planning more fun and more streamlined. So we have this wedding planning product on WeddingLovely.com and I would love it if people would come on and try it out and just plan their weddings with us.
John Lee Dumas: Awesome, Tracy. Well, we will link all of these up in the show notes. Fire Nation, we thank you, we salute you for joining us, and we’ll catch you on the flipside.
Tracy Osborn: [Laughs] Thank you so much. Have a great day.