Stu: My fire has been burning since Episode 45. I'm ready to go.

John: Yes. I love it. Fire Nation, Stu's an online entrepreneur living 45 minutes south of Toronto – the top hat of America. He's built companies, sold companies, and he now advises companies. Stu loves the freedom and opportunity that comes with being an entrepreneur and believes that, as entrepreneurs, we can leave the most significant impact on the world because of our ability to make money and then channel it into meaningful causes and projects. Stu, take a minute, fill in some gaps from that intro and give us a little glimpse into your personal life.

Stu: Yeah, sure, man. So the big thing for me is that entrepreneurship's been my game since Day 1. I started going in the corporate world and realized I was like a square peg in a round hole. So I had to blaze my own path and, through one business has led to another and, long story short, I ended up building a piece of software called "Wishlist Member." And, over the course of six years, we grew that to where, when I sold my shares, it was powering over 60,000 online communities and membership sites.

And, from that, I learned a ton. I learned what works for successful sites and what doesn't and, now, what I do is I spend the majority of my time teaching others, influencers, bloggers, speakers, podcasters how to leverage their knowledge and influence and turn it into high six, seven, and even eight figure membership sites. And the reason I'm passionate about this, John, is because my wife and I also run a charity and we build schools over in Kenya. In fact, I'm leaving in a couple weeks to go and open our next school which is super exciting.

And the key thing here is that, when I'm over there, you see how far a dollar goes and what I realized the first time I ever went to Kenya was the more money we make, the more impact we can have. And that's why I'm on this quest to help as many entrepreneurs make as much money as possible because, at the end of the day, when we have all that money, we're just a steward and we can direct it in any which way we want to the people and the causes that we're most passionate about.

John: I love that mindset. And Fire Nation, why not choose to have that mindset of abundance? Is there ever such thing as too much or enough? Not when you have that mindset of, "Let me be a steward of this money that I've generated – this revenue that I've generated." I love this in every way. And, as Stu did allude, he was Episode 45 of EOFire. That, by the way, is pre-launch because I interviewed 50 entrepreneurs – so I had 50 in the bank – so Stu is one of my Power 50 pre-launch. So if you want to go back and have a little bit of a chuckle, Fire Nation, go back to Episode, hear myself and Stu chat. Stu, of course, was amazing. I was not. I was still trying to get my bearings, so to speak – my sea legs, if you're nautical – but that was 1,352 episodes ago.

That's just mind blowing because, Stu, we're now in Episode 1397 of EOFire as we're talking right now. That's me and you – we're Episode 1397, here. And the reason why I brought you on is because you're just the man when it comes to membership sites. You alluded to it a couple minutes ago but we're going to dive deep, Fire Nation, today, into membership sites. Because when people ask me, they're like, "John, how'd you first monetize EOFire?" One of the first ways was Fire Nation Elite which is a membership mastermind site that I created back in the spring of 2013 and, for two and a half years, I ran Fire Nation Elite and generated five figures a month in revenue that entire time – and would have done a lot more but we capped it at 100 people because we were doing a ton of other things like the podcast, Podcaster's Paradise, other things along those lines.

So there's so much opportunity here and, in fact, we're going to be talking all about membership sites with Stu today. He has a killer, completely free video series all about memberships that has to do with recurring revenue, how to build your membership site into a six, seven, and then even potentially eight figure revenue recurring source. So let's definitely listen in here and, if you want that video series, easy – we'll be talking about it a couple times throughout this entire interview but eofire.com/membership. That's eofire.com/membership. Head over there, grab your free spot on this free video series and it'll be off to the races. But, still, I want to know this – how did you, Stu McClaren, become the go-to guy for all things memberships sites?

Stu: Well, for me, buddy, it actually started because I wanted to start my own membership site. So, prior to starting Wishlist Member, I had an affiliate management business and I was managing top affiliate programs. We were doing mega-launches. This was back in the day, circa 2005 to 2008 – so back in the old days – and one of the things that I loved about the business was that it was very profitable. One of the things I didn't like about the business was it was super constrictive of my time, meaning it was essentially a consultant role and the only way I could grow that business was to give more of my time and I didn't have any more time to give.

So I was looking for a way to be able to leverage what I knew, and share it with more people, and, hopefully, be able to scale the business and so I started looking at a membership site. The problem was, at the time, it was too technical for me. I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine who ended up becoming my business partner – Tracy Childers – and I was saying to him, "Dude, I can't figure out the HT access and the server settings," and all this kind of stuff. It was just way beyond my paygrade. And he's like, "Why don't you just create your own solution?" And I'm like, "I don't think you're getting this. I am not the technical guy that's going to be able to create anything. I don't even know how to set what's available up." And he said, "Well, why don't we create it together? I've got a developer that's really good that works with me and we can do it together."

And so that's what happened and we ended up creating Wishlist Member and it was to scratch our own itch. And, long story short, that thing just took off. Like I mentioned before, in a very short period of time, we were powering over 60,000 online communities and membership sites. Now, the cool thing for me was this was like a playground where I got to see the inner workings of literally thousands and thousands of membership sites.

And I basically discovered there were two groups. Group No. 1 was the hobbyists. These were the people who launched a site for some side income and it usually took off and had a decent launch and then it slowly faded into Nothingland and so either that or it flatlined, meaning that the growth just wasn't happening and it had basically hit a glass ceiling. Then there was this other group who I would call the business owner. And these people, their growth curve almost looked like a staircase and it just kept going up, and up, and up, and up. And so those are the people that I started paying attention to and I found that they did a few things totally different from the other hobbyist group and that's what allowed them to succeed, and really grow, and really scale.

And so I was looking for a way to be able to take all that knowledge and try it on a fresh site. And so I partnered with New York Times bestselling author Michael Hyatt, who had a great audience but his business model was broken. The way he was building his business was he was out on the road as a platform speaker and he was literally speaking 30, 40, 50 times a year. And you add a day on the front for travel, a day on the back for travel, that meant that he was gone way over 100 days of the year. And so, when I met with him, he loved what he did, he loved the message that he had to share – he was just coming off his New York Times bestselling book – but he was tired and he just wanted to be home with his wife, and his kids, and his grandkids.

And so we partnered together and we took the same material based around his book and we leveraged it in a different way by creating a membership site. And I poured everything that I knew and had learned from all these membership site business owners and we grew that site. And, in the first week of launch, we had 1,100 members. After the first year, we had 2,500. After the second year, we had 4,500. After the third year, we had over 6,000 and it continues to grow today. So this proved to me that everything that I had learned from these business owners, it worked.

So, other people then started reaching out because they wanted to replicate what we had done with Michael's for theirs. And, since then, that's basically been the crux of my business is I've been running these high level workshops all over the world in California, and Toronto, and Hawaii, and Brazil – I just got back from – teaching people how to take their knowledge and influence and turn it into a highly profitable recurring income through memberships.

John: Fire Nation, these are real numbers from real entrepreneurs. Now, don't just look at these numbers and say, "Wow, I'm really intimidated. Michael Hyatt, he's a New York Times bestselling author. He's done all of these different things. He speaks from stage, X, Y, Z." The reality is this. Yes, that is a fact but that's 6,000 members. What if you had 10 percent of that? What if you had 1 percent of that? What if you hat 6 percent of that? What if you had 60 people, just 60, 60 people paying you $100 a month? That's $6,000 in recurring revenue. That's where the numbers start to get exciting and you don't need to think of these high gaudy numbers like 6,000. Of course, you can aim to that and build to that, but all of this is within your grasp. And I think that's one of the reasons, Stu, why people are really excited about memberships, and subscriptions, and recurring revenue is because they're seeing that. But let's talk about the present moment here for a minute – why do you think memberships and subscription sites are all the rage today?

Stu: If you just look around us, John, you can see the reality of what's happening. Big major software companies like Apple, and Microsoft, and Amazon, and so many other big companies are transitioning to recurring subscription models. You'll see the story of Blockbuster and Netflix. Blockbuster, they stayed put. They did not believe in a subscription model and so, even when this little startup of Netflix was coming along, they poo pooed it. They even had a chance to buy Netflix and they said, "No, forget it." And Block buster, at the time, was a $6 billion a year business with 60,000 employees and, in a seven year period, went from $6 billion to bankrupt where Netflix went from a small startup to over $7 billion and over 74 million monthly subscribers.

It's crazy, but the reality of what's happening today is that there's this huge shift toward a subscription model. And I would encourage all of Fire Nation just to think about all of the things that you pay for on a monthly or annual basis, all of the tools that you pay for in your business, all of the services that you pay for – even personal subscriptions that you may belong to. Perhaps magazine subscriptions or online websites, or membership sites, or masterminds, or clubs, or groups, or even things like my family and I, every week, we get a box of organic vegetables delivered to our door. That's a monthly subscription that we pay for. These are all subscriptions or examples of subscriptions.

And the reality of it is it's easier or at the same amount of effort to make the sale for a monthly subscription – where the customer pays you again, and again, and again – than it is to make a one-time sale. And given that, it only makes sense to focus on memberships and subscriptions because we all want customers that are going to return month after month, after month and, with a membership or subscription, they're guaranteed to return. But, if you stick with the old way of focusing on one-time transactions, you're hoping that they return and nobody wants to build a business based on hope. You know what I'm saying John?

John: I hear you loud and clear. And, actually, one of the most recent examples that I can think of is when I went into the Verizon store and, basically, forever since I could remember, I would go in and, once every two years, I would buy a phone. I would pay, basically, for the phone up front, and then, over the next two years, I would use the phone and it would wear down. Then I would go back into Verizon and I would buy a new phone. But I went in a few months ago and they were saying, "Hey John, you don't need to buy this new phone anymore and pay for it upfront. We have this Edge plan where you can just pay," – what was it – "$20, $23, whatever per month and, not only can you get a brand new phone, you don't have to actually plunk down $400, $500, $600 for, but whenever you want to come in and return the phone – if you're going to stay on this recurring plan – then you can just turn it in. You don't have to wait two years."

And I was just like, "Man, Verizon is truly seeing the value of recurring revenue. They want to know how much money is coming in on that month-to-month. They don't want to wait just once over two years for that one big payment and maybe losing to Sprint or T-Mobile or others to that. They want me in, locked in, recurring revenue." And, Fire Nation, this is how a good business is run. So let's talk about strategy, Stu, because Fire Nation, they are action takers, they are entrepreneurs, sidepreneurs, small business owners – what strategies actually contribute to a successful membership?

Stu: This is where we're going to get real practical. There are five. The first is what I call the foundation strategy. This is really where you want to get clear on who you're serving and what their internal and external problems are. So let me explain that. The external problem is typically what your customer is going to go to Google and search a solution for. That's pretty easy – that's what most of us in marketing focus on – but the real sweet spot is also hitting on the internal problem. Now, the internal problem is like that dialogue that we all have in our minds but we don't vocalize.

So, for example, when I made the decision to sell my company a couple years ago, it was a big decision. The company was growing like crazy, we were doing really well, but I just knew that, for me at that moment in time, it wasn't the vehicle that was going to get me to where I ultimately wanted to be. And so I remember internally struggling with all kinds of questions and self-doubt. I was thinking, "What if I can't repeat my success with Wishlist Member? What if Wishlist Member was a one-time wonder? I wonder if people will want to do business with me now that I'm no longer associated with Wishlist. Am I putting my family at jeopardy?"

These are all kinds of questions that are running through my mind when I'm laying in bed at night when I'm making that decision. As people who have something to sell and a message to share, we want to be uniquely dialed in to those internal thoughts that our audience is having and that's what the foundation strategy is built around because, once you know these things and you have some clarity around the type of membership site that you're going to create… And there are many different types, that's the beauty of a membership site. It's not a one-size-fits-all. You have the flexibility to cater it around whatever you want and however you want. Some people want to be highly engaged in a community. Other people don't want a community at all. Some people want to create lots of community – or lots of content – others don't want to create any content at all. You can really shape it however you want. There's a ton of different ways to do it. But the key thing and the foundation strategy is you've got to get clear on that.

No. 2 is your content strategy. So your content – a lot of people think that a membership for content is you throw a whole bunch of content into a member's area and, hopefully, by the sheer volume of content, people will then have appreciation for it and will want to stay around. But the reality of it is, John, more content does not necessarily mean better. In fact, from my experience working with literally tens of thousands of membership site owners, less content is actually better and here's why. Because, when there's less content, people are able to consume it. And, when they consume it, they get the value from it. And, when they get value from it, they are much more likely going to stay.

But, if there's so much content and they can't keep up with it, there's a seed of doubt that is planted in their mind. Now they are overwhelmed and now, once they feel like they can't keep up, it's just a matter of time before they cancel. So less content is better. And so what your content strategy does is it maps out what kind of content are you going to deliver to your audience and how are you going to deliver it – the frequency of which you're going to deliver – and you want to get into a rhythm and a routine. Just like back in the old days with T.V. where your favorite show would show up at Thursday at 8:00 – they did that because it creates habits. You want to do the same thing with your content inside your membership. So No. 2 is your content strategy.

No. 3 is your marketing strategy. So how are you going to get eyeballs to your site? And you want to be clear about this because a lot of membership sites… Even for us in the beginning – one of the things that we did with Michael Hyatt's "Platform University" was we kept it open all the time but what we found was that became a challenge. It became a challenge for two reasons. No. 1, it because a challenge for us because we were having to market it all the time so we were constantly in promotion mode and that sucks. And, No. 2, it became challenging for our audience because, every single month, we were basically promoting the membership site and it didn't take long before our marketing messages began to fall on deaf ears because they felt like they had heard it before.

So we actually went from being open all the time to doing four promotions a year and then we ended up reducing that down to two promotions a year. And the crazy part about this marketing strategy is that, by reducing the number of promotions or the number of times that we would open the membership per year, it actually dramatically increased the number of people who signed up. There was more urgency in terms of them getting off the fence and actually committing to the membership and, No. 2, it gave us more time and breathing room to actually create an amazing promotion and so our promotions were way better. And so, by reducing the number of promotions, we actually increased our effectiveness. So it sounds counterintuitive and, oftentimes, it is, but these are the kinds of things you want to get clear on – how many promotions are you going to do, what kinds of promotions are you going to run, and you want to get into a rhythm of creating a marketing strategy.

No. 4 is your retention strategy. John, you could probably speak to this but, with a membership site – especially when it's monthly and recurring – the No. 1 thing that is going to impact your profitability is your ability to keep people happy and paying month after month.

John: Totally.

Stu: I'm telling you right now, for Fire Nation, this is your No. 1 thing. If you're going to create a membership site and the only thing you take away from this conversation is this one point, it's this: focus on retention. Retention is where the money is made in membership sites. Your ability to keep people happy and paying is what's directly going to contribute to your profitability. So what are you going to do to keep people happy and paying month after month? That all encompasses into your retention plan. And the fifth and final one is your growth plan. So how do you grow and how do you scale your membership? That's a key question because that's going to involve a lot of automation, it's going to involve building a team, and it's going to involve growing the whole business as a whole. So these are the five areas. No. 1, your retention strategy, No. 2, your content strategy, No. 3, your marketing strategy, No. 4, your retention strategy, and No. 5, your growth strategy.

John: And, Fire Nation, I want to jump in here and say something that Stu was talking about during his marketing strategy that was such a key phrase – urgency. Urgency is the key word. If you can't implement urgency into your launch, into your membership site, anything that you do, you're going to have much less success than if you do. With Podcaster's Paradise, we are always injecting urgency. And it's real urgency like when we took away lifetime membership, when we raised the price, when we did this – X, Y, or Z. There always has to be urgency. So what are you doing to implement urgency? And I just love those five points, Stu – foundation, content, marketing, retention, growth. Nailed it. And, again, Fire Nation, if you want just this killer free video series that Stu has put together for Fire Nation – and, of course, for anybody else who wants to check it out – it's at eofire.com/membership. That's eofire.com/membership. Totally free – value bombs galore.

And, speaking of value bombs, we have a ton of value bombs coming up in the rest of this chat but let's take a quick minute to thank our sponsors. But don't go anywhere because we'll be right back.

So Stu, we are back, brother. Thanks for hanging out. So we're going to talk about the first thing that somebody should actually do if they're thinking about launching a membership site. And we've given the reasons why, the strategies within, but what's the first thing that somebody who's listening to this right now should do if they want to try this and put this into action?

Stu: First thing that I would recommend they do is just get clear on who they are planning to serve and help. When I'm looking at potential market or I'm helping clients get clear on the type of membership site that they're going to create, there are a few things that I focus on. No. 1, I look at their community. So their community is their audience and, sometimes, we don't have a big audience like a Michal Hyatt but, sometimes, we have a much smaller audience. Like, for example, a friend of mine – her name is Susan Garrett – she recently launched a new membership site to a list of less than 1,800 people. But, because the list was small, she had an incredible relationship with that list.

So the benefit of a smaller list is that you have a more intimate relationship with that list. And so, when she did and launched her membership site – which, again, she's a dog trainer so she has a membership site teaching people how to train their dog – she had over 1,000 members join. Over 61 percent of her list joined and became a paid member and she started with a list of less than 1,800 people. So the key thing is that, No. 1, assess your community. Do you have a good relationship with that community? Are they engaged? Are they interacting? And more, importantly, what are their problems? We talked about that a little bit earlier – internal problems, their external problems – get real clear on that.

Second thing that I always assess is your content. Are you creating content right now, or do you have content that you already created, and/or are people asking a lot of questions of you? And, if so, those are the kinds of things that you want to pay attention to. So, in the case of Michael, he was coming off a New York Times bestselling book and he literally was getting inundated with questions from people who had follow-up responses, and ideas, and thoughts that they wanted to ask him about stuff in the book. And, if that's you, then that's a really good sign.

Second thing is, if you have content – and perhaps you're not getting a lot of comments on your blog or you're not getting questions coming through – what I would encourage you to do is to ask people to give you their questions. So, for example, when somebody signs up for my email list, the very first email that they get, in the bottom, I encourage them to hit reply. I say – it's like a P.S. – "Hit reply and let me know what your No. 1 question is about launching, growing, or scaling a six, seven, or eight figure membership," and every single day, I get people who reply to that. And what's amazing is they're basically telling me what kind of content I should create. So, if you're not getting the questions naturally, you have to be proactive about asking people for questions. Where is the hurt? Where is the challenge? We want to find those external and internal doubts, and questions, and challenges, and so forth.

So those are the two things that I look for when I'm assessing a potential market. I'm looking at the community, I'm looking at the content, and then I'm also looking at the competition. So what is my competition putting out there in the marketplace and where can I fit in that whole realm of things? So do I want to play a volume game and I want to price myself super low? Do I want to be more exclusive and price myself high? There's all kinds of different ways that you can position yourself in the marketplace but you've got to know what you're up against and what people perceive to be your competition because those are the options that people are looking at.

When they're looking at different things to sign up for and different things to purchase, they are comparing you to other people. At the end of the day, when they're looking at their credit card bill and they're looking for things to cancel, if they're signed up for multiple things, they're going to look at which one is bringing me the most value. So you've got to know how you stand out in the marketplace. So those are the three things that I would get clear on before I look to start any or launch any membership site. I want to get clear on my community, I want to get clear on my content, and I want to get clear on my competition. Does that make sense, John?

John: It makes sense to me, Stu. And I know Fire Nation – they are saying, "Wow. This is great information." But, Fire Nation, I know you – you're still saying, "Still, I know that when I start going forward – when I take action – I'm going to make mistakes. I'm going to trip up. I'm going to fail. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that." So, Stu, let's talk about where people get tripped up when planning or launching a membership site so Fire Nation can be aware of this and maybe plan to avoid those potholes.

Stu: So I was thinking about this. I was driving back from my office today and one of the things that we tried today was an experiment. We were trying something totally new and it was how we were delivering content on Facebook on a Facebook Live broadcast. But instead of doing it from my phone like I normally do, we tried something a little more advanced. We had a couple different cameras and we showed websites and all this kind of stuff. And it was totally brand new and we were totally flying by the seat of our pants. But one of the things that I thought about was that, in my earlier years, I would have hesitated to do that. I would have hesitated to experiment. I would have hesitated to try and see what happens because I was always stuck in trying to get it so perfect.

And I don't know if anybody in your audience ever deals with this but this is something that, even today, I need people around me to push me because, before I launch things, I try to make sure it's so perfect. And the great thing about a membership site is that it does not need to be perfect right from the get-go. In fact, your community will actually have a high level of appreciation for you and for what you're creating if you openly share with them, "This is an experiment. This is something that we're creating together. This is you and I. This is not me putting something out. This is us collaborating. This is us shaping this so that it becomes our awesome community."

The No. 1 thing that trips people up is that they try to get it too perfect. But a membership site is like a living, breathing organism. We can change it – we can adapt it – at any point in time. When we launched, we had a crappy forum solution. Within weeks, we were switching out the forum. And then there was a big chunk of content that we got bored with – that our market didn't get bored with, we got bored with it. But we ended up switching that out and trying something new. And so you can always change and morph your membership site how you want it but you just got to get going.

A good friend of mine back in the day, Mike Litman, he always said, "You don't have to get it right. You just have to get it going." And that couldn't be more true than it is with a membership site. The other thing that I would say trips people up a lot is that they try to pack way too much content into the membership. We talked about that before – less is best with a membership. Provide focus and clarity – give people direction as to where they are, and where they want to be, and the steps in between. That's what a membership site is all about is guiding people through the journey of getting from where they are to where they want to be. It's not about inundating them with a ton of content. So those are the two big areas that people get tripped up. No. 1, they try to make it so perfect in the beginning that they never actually get going. And, No. 2, they end up overwhelming their members with way too much content.

John: Fire Nation, perfectionism will trip you up every time. And there's actually a killer quote by Reed Hoffman, the founder of LinkedIn – "If you waited until it's perfect, you waited way too long." And I just love that because you've got to get it out there. You've got to shift, you've just got to put that in front of people so that they can give you feedback and say, "Hey, switch this and adjust that." And, like Stu said, your audience is going to love going through the process and the journey with you – feeling like they actually have some say in what's being created. Now, again, Fire Nation, you want to get these free video tutorials that Stu has for you. It's a killer video series. Head over to eofire.com/membership and you can sign up for that all day long. And, Stu, I want to end today on fire. So share with us your final thoughts, then the best way that we can connect with you, and then we'll say goodbye.

Stu: Alright, so here's the final thing I want to leave everybody with. You and I live in the greatest time ever for being an entrepreneur.

John: Yes.

Stu: That's why I love shows like EOFire. For me, having that entrepreneurial fire around us, within us – we live in the greatest time ever to be an entrepreneur.

John: Stu, I'm in Puerto Rico right now, baby.

Stu: I know. It's crazy the kind of life that we can live and our ability to be able to do business with literally millions of people around the world. We're not limited to having the best plot of land or being on the best corner street. We're not limited by having to find funding and having to get money from banks. Today, we can bootstrap, we can get started, we can launch anything very quickly and very easily and reach thousands and thousands of people. And so, with that opportunity, it creates additional opportunity for us to literally shape our lives, and to shape the impact, and to shape the legacy that we want to have in this world.

And so my encouragement to everybody is, look, because we live in the greatest time ever, it's our responsibility to take advantage of that. When I think back to just one generation ago with my parents – they didn't have a fraction of the opportunity that you and I have today. And, in fact, I was recalling last night – with a friend of mine – even when the internet really just began – and I was thinking back to the days of Hotmail when it was really big to be able to get an email address – and now you look how far we've come in such a short period of time. And this opportunity is only going to get bigger and better.

And what I want to share with everybody is that there is not a better business model than a recurring membership or subscription. And I want to encourage everybody to leverage what you're already doing and just repackage it in a way that is going to provide you, your business, and the world far more impact. You're going to have more money coming in for your business. You're going to be able to invest more in your projects – and scale them and make them better. You're going to be able to invest more in your community. You're going to be able to invest more in the way you serve your audience. You're going to be able to invest more in the projects, and causes, and people that you're passionate about.

And that, my friends, is what entrepreneurship is all about. We are the only ones who can have the kind of impact that can really change this world. People working for others, or for the government, or whatever, they can't have the impact that you and I have. There's no cap on the amount of money that you and I can make. There's no cap and nobody can tell us what we can and can't do. And that's why I love being an entrepreneur. And that's why I want to encourage everybody just to go full tilt into what you're doing because now is the time to take advantage of what we have available to us as entrepreneurs. So that's why I'm fired up, buddy. I'm fired up because it's a great time to live, it's a great time to be an entrepreneur, and it's a great time to have impact.

John: Fire Nation, I'm embarrassed. I am embarrassed that I waited 1,352 episodes to bring Stu back on EOFire because can you even believe the passion that this guy has, the good that he's doing in the world and just the generous spirit in which he's doing it? And I love it. And, Fire Nation, you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. You been hanging out with Stu and JLD today so keep up the heat. And head over to eofire.com, type Stu in the search bar. His page will pop up with everything that we've been talking about, best show notes in the biz, Fire Nation. And, of course, go back and listen to Episode 45. You'll get a chuckle because that was a long time ago. Stu, I want to thank you, brother, for sharing your journey with Fire Nation today. For that, we salute and we'll catch you on the flip side.

Stu: Thanks, buddy. Appreciate you.