Rebecca Zung is a Narcissism Negotiation Expert. She was recognized as Best Lawyer in America by U.S. News. She has two bestselling books and 6 million views on YouTube. She has been featured on Extra, Dr. Drew, NPR, Forbes, in Time Mag, Huffington Post, Newsweek and many more media outlets.
Rebecca Zung’s YouTube – Subscribe to Rebecca’s YouTube!
RebeccaZung.com – Rebecca’s Website
WinMyNegotiation.com – Download your FREE “Crush My Negotiation” worksheet
3 Value Bombs
1) You alone define your value. Regardless of how the other person makes you feel, you have the power to not give them the permission. A narcissist will do everything to bring you down.
2) The key to negotiating with a narcissist is to build a strategy and have leverage that actually threatens a source of narcissistic supply that is more important for the narcissist to keep and retain than the supply that they get from jerking you around and keeping you miserable.
3) When you’re creating that “magic bullet” leverage, think about what’s going to motivate and squeeze that narcissist, and incentivize them into wanting to come to the table with you by coming up with things that potentially expose them.
**Click the time stamp to jump directly to that point in the episode.
Today’s Audio MASTERCLASS: How to Negotiate with a Narcissist and Win with Rebecca Zung
[1:15] – Rebecca shares something she believes about becoming successful that most people disagree with.
- Being successful is doing what you say you’re going to do. It may sound so simplistic but most people don’t do that.
[2:30] – Defining a narcissist person.
- A narcissist is a person who has no sense of inner value, so they have to get all their value from the external world. They have no sense of care and compassion or empathy for other people.
[3:53] – How do narcissists act in a negotiation, and how can that help us?
- A reasonable person is thinking towards a resolution. They have an eye on resolving what matters.
- A narcissist’s ego is fed by jerking people around, controlling the process, seeing people squirm, manipulating, and intimidating.
[5:21] – Rebecca shares an example of how narcissism plays out in the real world.
- There’s one person who wants to reach a resolution, and another (a narcissist) who wants to make things as difficult as possible and not provide any of the necessary things to reach that resolution.
[6:59] – The one big secret to negotiating with narcissists.
- In a narcissists world, there’s a hierarchy of supply that they will protect and do anything to keep.
- The key to negotiating with a narcissist is to build a strategy and have leverage that actually threatens a source of narcissistic supply that is more important for the narcissist to keep and retain than the supply that they get from jerking you around and keeping you miserable.
[12:00] – Rebecca talks about the “magic bullet” and creating leverage
- The magic bullet is figuring out what’s going to ‘ethically’ manipulate the manipulator.
- In any negotiation and interaction all people want to feel, see, and know is that they matter.
- A good negotiator figures out what motivates the other side
- When you’re creating “magic bullet” leverage, think about what’s going to motivate and squeeze the narcissist, and incentivize them into wanting to come to the table with you by coming up with things that potentially expose them.
[15:28] – The importance of mindset when negotiation with narcissist.
- 80% of the negotiation is won before you walk into the room.
- People will think what you tell them to think. If you feel like the other person is more powerful and you won’t get to where you want to go, then you’ll never go farther than where you think you’re going.
[17:11] – The thing to remember in winning a negotiation with a narcissist.
- Mindset has to be first. Make sure you do your research and anticipate what the other side’s argument is going to be during the risk assessment.
- Make sure to start with things agreed upon, and ask a lot more than what it is you actually want.
[19:01] – Rebecca’s key takeaway and call to action for Fire Nation.
- You alone define your value. Regardless of how the other person makes you feel, you have the power to not give them the permission. Narcissists will do everything to bring you down.
- WinMyNegotiation.com – Download your FREE “Crush My Negotiation” Worksheet!
Shake the room, fire nation, JLD here. And welcome to entrepreneurs on fire brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network with great shows like the salesmen podcast. Today, we'll be focusing on how to negotiate with a narcissist in when to drop these value bombs. I brought Rebecca Zung on the mic. She is a narcissism and negotiation expert has been recognized as the best lawyer in America. By us news. She has two best-selling books, 6 million views on YouTube and has been featured on extra Dr. Drew NPR, Forbes, time, Huffington, post Newsweek, and many more media outlets. And today for our nation. We'll talk about how do you define a narcissist, how they act in negotiations?
What's the secret to negotiating with them and so much more. When we get back from thinking our sponsors, the HubSpot podcast network is the audio destination for business professionals who seek the best education and inspiration on how to grow a business. Whether you're looking for marketing sales, service, or operational guidance, the HubSpot podcast network hosts have your back, listen, learn and grow with the HubSpot podcast network at hubspot.com/podcast network hiring can feel like trying to find a needle in a haystack, but when you post a job on ZipRecruiter, their matching technology finds these qualified candidates for you and invites them to apply. So while other companies give you too many options, ZipRecruiter finds you the needle in the haystack.
0 (1m 28s):
And right now you can try ZipRecruiter for free at ziprecruiter.com/fire. Rebecca say what's up to fire nation and share something that you believe about becoming successful that most people disagree with.
1 (1m 44s):
So what's up fire nation, so excited to join you. I am super excited to be part of your podcast and, and being part of your community as far as something that I believe that most people disagree with. I'm going to go ahead and say execution. I think a lot of people think that maybe it's brains. Maybe it's a lot of other things, but I really think a lot of it has to do with actually ha doing what you say you're going to do. And I know that sounds really simplistic, but so many people just don't do that.
0 (2m 24s):
I mean, isn't there a quote or something along the lines of like all the best ideas are buried in the graveyard because Hey, you can have a great idea, but unless you execute on that idea, fire nation, ain't nothing going to happen. So let's get going on this. And I love this topic and I shared that with you Rebecca, before we hit the record button, because it's really interesting when we were talking about how to negotiate with a narcissist. And when, so first off, what the heck isn't narcissist? I mean, how would you define narcissists? I love that question
1 (2m 57s):
Because it is not somebody who just says something nice about themselves. You know, a lot of people are like, oh, you know, I everybody's supposed to be doing self-love. So what's the difference between self-love and being a narcissist, right? So it really is, comes down to two things. It is a person who has no sense of inner value. So they have to get all of their value from the external world, either through people or events or things and, and coupled with, and this is really important. They have no sense of care, compassion, or empathy for other people.
1 (3m 39s):
They just can't get any there. So it's both of those things. It's not just somebody who goes around saying that. They're great.
0 (3m 49s):
Now let's talk about specifically within negotiations, because that's something that I maybe just don't understand and don't get is like that you may be treating them a little differently in negotiations than you would a non narcissist. But I mean, let's be honest, as I shared in the introduction, you've had quite the experience over the years in courtrooms and out of courtrooms in these types of negotiations. So how do narcissists specifically act in negotiations and how will this help us knowing how they act? So
1 (4m 20s):
The main difference between narcissists and what I call reasonable people is that they don't want the same thing that a reasonable person wants. A reasonable person is thinking toward resolution. They have an eye toward, what's going to resolve this matter. The narcissist actually their ego is fed. And what we call that narcissistic supply, their ego is fed by jerking people around by controlling the process by seeing people squirm by manipulating, by intimidating.
1 (5m 1s):
So even though their lips might say, they want a resolution, you're wondering why they're constantly changing the goalposts, why you can't ever seem to pin them down, why there's protracted litigation, why they are stalling on things, not disclosing information, withholding, all sorts of things. And the reason why is because they get narcissistic supply from that process.
0 (5m 35s):
So Rebecca, what I really want to understand is maybe an example of how you've seen this inaction. I mean, of course we don't have to use names. We can protect the innocent or the guilty, whatever they may be, but like, how have you seen this actually act out in the real world? Give us as specific as an example as you can. Okay.
1 (5m 54s):
So I was representing a narcissist in this particular instance, and here's a guy who is saying he wants the case to be settled, but he also says to me, I'd rather pay you than her. So, you know, it comes down to let's, you know, it's time to provide financial documents, which are required by law. So there's certain amount of disclosure that's required by law in certain types of cases. And he, you know, he's refusing to fork over the financial information. Everything has to be done by subpoena. Everything is, you know, objected to, and, you know, I had to deal with this as the lawyer.
1 (6m 39s):
And I would be saying to him, this is a waste of money. Why are you objecting to this? You are going to go in front of the judge. And the judge is going to say, provide the documents. And he just said, I just want to make it as difficult as possible. I don't want to provide the documents. I don't want her in my stuff. I don't want to have to do this. And so, even though it's something that eventually he's going to end up having to do, he just makes it as difficult as possible. For the other side,
0 (7m 11s):
You have a lot of experience negotiating with narcissist. And you've also, you've already shared a lot of tips, tools, tactics, and different things, but what's the secret. Like what's a one big secret to negotiating with narcissists. That will be really helpful for us to know.
1 (7m 27s):
He told you about narcissistic supply. So, but within the narcissist brain in their world, they, and they don't even consciously think about this, but they have, there's a hierarchy of supply for them. So there is a form of supply that they'll keep they'll protect, they'll do anything they have to, to keep. And that's usually wrapped up in how they look to the world, how they look to people, they respect how they look to mediators, judges, lawyers, anybody in the process. It might be their employees that might be their employers. It might be neighbors, friends. It really doesn't matter, but there are certain people out there in the world that for the narcissist, they will do anything.
1 (8m 14s):
They have to, to maintain their facade of looking perfect and wonderful, wonderful in front of those people. Then there's what I call that the diamond level supply. And then what I call the KOL level supply, which means it burns. It gives them energy. And of course they want to keep it. It's definitely valuable for them, but that's the supply that they get that I just explained to you in the negotiation where they are jerking people around and controlling the process and making everything difficult and all that sort of thing. So that really the key is building a strategy and leverage that actually threatens a source of narcissistic supply.
1 (8m 57s):
That's going to be more important for the narcissist to keep and protect and retain. Then the supply that they get from jerking you around and making you miserable, and the key is going, okay, this is going to happen. You're going to be exposed and therefore they'll have to let go of, you know, it won't be worth it to them anymore. At that point,
0 (9m 21s):
Fire nation, you can create a magic bullet leverage. And guess what, we're going to talk with Rebecca about specifically how to use it. We talked about the importance of mindsets when you're negotiating with narcissists and so much more. When we get back from thanking our sponsors, recent data shows that of all the female owned businesses. It is estimated that one in three is owned by a mom ever wonder how these amazing moms and dads find time to hire for their businesses while juggling their families. They do it with zip recruiter. And right now you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/fire CEO and founder. Talia Goldstein is one such mompreneur besides being a mother of two, her personalized matchmaking company three day rule is constantly growing.
0 (10m 7s):
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0 (10m 49s):
You need software that can support you for that. There's, HubSpots just a few examples of how HubSpot can help support you in your business. Include HubSpot's conversational intelligence tools, which makes it easy to scale your team. You can view call transcripts and moderate conversations, giving you the ability to provide real-time feedback and support for your team. Another great tool is HubSpot's customizable reports and analytics tools. These help give you a quick and easy look at how your business is performing without having to rely on an operations team. Finally, with 650 plus integrations, HubSpot has tshirt offer you everything you need while giving you the flexibility to add anything that will further support you in your business. As you grow, customize it to meet your business needs without adding complexity, learn more about how you can scale your company without scaling complexity at hubspot.com, Rebecca we're back.
0 (11m 40s):
And we kind of teased that magic bullets and creating leverage with this magic bullet when we decide to use it, when we decide to employ it. So kind of break that down for us. What is this magic bullet? How do we use it? How do we create it and how do we leverage it? So this magic
1 (11m 56s):
Bullet is what we, I just sort of started to explain, which is that figuring out what's going to, I call it ethically manipulating the manipulator. So you're basically figuring out what motivates them and you know, in, in any negotiation and any interaction with people, all people want to feel seen, heard, and know that they matter. That's actually just part of being human and really good negotiators. Also figure out what's motivating the other side. But the problem is that when you're dealing with narcissists, a lot of times people think that what's motivating. The other side might be money, might be, you know, if it's a divorce situation, it might be their kids or something like that.
1 (12m 41s):
But that is actually very rarely what is truly the motivation for a narcissist. So when you're creating that magic bullet leverage, what you're doing is you're thinking about what's going to really motivate and squeeze that narcissist and incentivize them into wanting to come to the table with you. And the way that you do that is you come up with the things that are potentially going to expose them such as creating summaries of their lies and inconsistent statements, and maybe creating summaries of times that they didn't pay something on time or that they withheld money, or they didn't do something that they were supposed to do anything that's going to potentially not play well when it comes time for the negotiation, either to the mediator or to other people that are going to be part of that negotiation process.
1 (13m 38s):
You know, the other thing you can do is say, listen, I'm going, I call it deposing to expose, you know, where they actually are. You, you say, I'm going to depose these people in your world and this camp, and we're going to have a conversation about what it is that you're doing and, you know, they don't necessarily want that to happen. So you're building an invisible fence around that narcissist in a way that they have no choice, but to deal with you in a reasonable person way. And you know, it seems like for the person who's the empath or the person who is the peace person who just wants to have a peaceful resolution who just wants, you know, let's just say goodbye.
1 (14m 25s):
Let's not burn bridges. Let's try to have some sort of relationship after this. It's, it's hard to imagine that you have to create leverage that you have to have a strategy because they, they, it seems like you want to fight when you do that. But so it seems counterintuitive, but when you're dealing with the narcissist, if you want to have a peaceful resolution, if you want to come to that, that nice tie it up in a bow walk away sort of situation where you are somewhat unscathed, you have to create strategy and leverage, or you will never be able to get back to that point.
0 (15m 6s):
Now, Rebecca, we talk a lot about mindsets on entrepreneurs, on fire. Let's talk a little bit about the importance of mindsets when you're negotiating with a narcissist, how does this play a role? Oh, I mean,
1 (15m 20s):
It's critical. It's interesting because I've always said the 80% of a negotiation is won before you walk into a room. I actually just interviewed Bob Proctor and he, he corrected me on my own show and said, no, it's 95%. I will say that. I, in some ways I have to agree with him because if you don't have a powerful mindset, if you aren't certain that you can win, if you don't feel strong, then you know, you will never be able to get where you want to go. And so, you know, one of my favorite pieces of advice that was ever given to me was by one of my own business coaches.
1 (15m 59s):
And I was, you know, in a situation where I was worried that somebody was going to think something about me. I was worried that somebody was going to think it was a flake. And, and she said, people will think what you tell them to think. And it was such an aha moment for me. And I've always every time I speak on negotiation or, you know, in my book or on my podcast or whatever, I always make sure I work that in because people will think what you tell them to think. And if you're afraid in some way, if you are nervous or you're, you're feeling like the other person is more powerful and you're never going to be able to get where you want to go or never have a powerful resolution, then you, you know, you're never going to go farther than where you think you're going.
1 (16m 49s):
0 (16m 50s):
So Rebecca, as we close down here, let's talk about the one thing that we have to remember if we're going to successfully negotiate with these narcissists and not just negotiate with them, but actually when break that down for us, I mean, you hit
1 (17m 5s):
It on the nail as far as the nail on the head, as far as mindset has to be first, but also doing your research, making sure you're researching your side, make making sure you're anticipating what the other side's arguments are going to be doing your risk assessment. You know, all of those things are really, really important. Developing, developing a rapport, making sure that you start with the things that are more agreed upon and work toward the more difficult areas. I would definitely say, make sure that you are asking for a hell of a lot more than what it is that you actually want. And also don't let on what it is. That's most important for you to get out of this negotiation because whatever that is, the narcissist is going to want to make sure you don't get.
1 (17m 53s):
So, you know, in some ways, do we having a decoy where you're saying, Hey, this is really, really, really important to me. And it's something that you really don't even care about that much because you know, they liked to be contrarians. They like to make sure that if that's the one thing that you want, that that's the one thing that they're going to go after
0 (18m 11s):
And make sure you get. That's. The thing that I've really realized is dealing with a few narcissists that I've had to deal with on a continuing basis. They love. And I mean, love playing devil's advocate. I mean, you say something, even if they agree with you at the core, they are always going to take the opposite side on things just because they want to be the contrarian to play the devil's advocate. So just be prepared for that. It always seems to happen. And Rebecca, I want to just take a step back now, give you the mic. What's one thing out of everything we've talked about here today that you really want to make sure fire nation gets before we say goodbye. So I want
1 (18m 48s):
To talk about value your internal value versus your external value. And you know, you and you alone define your value. Your value is not defined by that. Narcissist, your value is not defined by anything external it's defined by you and you are inherently valuable. You are the only person on the planet that is like you you're the only person that ever has been or ever will be, you are meant to be here. And so, regardless of how the other person makes you feel, you know, you, you, you have the power to not give them that permission. You have the power to say, I'm not allowing whatever your issues are to, you know, become me.
1 (19m 33s):
So, you know, remember that because when you go to negotiate with the narcissist says, you become a public enemy, number one, with a narcissist, they're going to do whatever they can to take you down there, street fighters, they fight dirty. You know, so whatever the equivalent is of kicking you in the groin and pulling your hair and biting you, that's what they will, that's what they're willing to do. So it's going to be really, really important that you, you not emotional lies that, that you step back from that. And you say, that's not me. And I see how you're behaving. I see what you're doing. And almost sort of look at them as if they're like having a tantrum on the floor, you know, like, okay, two year olds having a tantrum.
1 (20m 17s):
So I see what you're doing. It has nothing to do with me. And the more that you can do that, and the more that you can stop yourself from being triggered, the more power you will have over them and the less power they will have over you.
0 (20m 30s):
Rebecca, you have two best-selling books. You have over 6 million views on YouTube. I mean, you've been featured on extra, Dr. Drew NPR, Forbes, time, Huffington post, you name it, you've been there. How can fire nation connect with you? How can they consume more of your content? What's your call to action for our audience today?
1 (20m 49s):
Definitely check out my YouTube channel, which is youtube.com/rebeccazung. But on obviously, if you just put in negotiating with narcissist, I'm the only one out there who is talking about that on the planet right now. And you can follow me at rebeccazung.com. You can join my free private Facebook group, which is narcissist negotiators with Rebecca Zung. I have a free crush my negotiation prep worksheet, which you can get at winmynegotiation.com and, you know, come check out all my free resources, tons and tons of stuff out there for you. You do not have to do this alone.
1 (21m 29s):
So I look forward to supporting you through this process.
0 (21m 34s):
You're the average of the five people you spend the most time with and hello. You been hanging out with RZ and JLD today. So let's keep up that heat and head over to EOFire.com type a Rebecca in the search bar. Her show's page will pop up with everything we've been talking about here today, links to everything, of course, head directly over to all those awesome links and calls to action that she shared as well. And Rebecca, thank you for sharing your truth, your knowledge, your value with fire nation today, for that we salute you and we'll catch you on the flip side. Thank you. Hey, fire nation today's value bomb content was brought to you by Rebecca. And if you've had your big idea, you'd be ready to ignite, but my free training will get you to your big idea.
0 (22m 14s):
If you don't have it. And we're talking to in less than 60 minutes, visit your big idea.io today, and we'll catch you there, or I'll catch you on the flip side. The HubSpot podcast network is the audio destination for business professionals who seek the best education and inspiration on how to grow a business. Whether you're looking for marketing sales, service, or operational guidance, the HubSpot podcast network hosts have your back, listen, learn and grow with the HubSpot podcast network at hubspot.com/podcast network hiring can feel like trying to find a needle in a haystack, but when you post a job on ZipRecruiter, their matching technology finds these qualified candidates for you and invites them to apply.
0 (22m 54s):
So while other companies give you too many options, ZipRecruiter finds you the needle in the haystack. And right now you can try ZipRecruiter for free at ziprecruiter.com/fire.
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