John: Boom, shake the room, Fire Nation! JLD here with an audio masterclass with my good friend Cole Hatter. And we are going to be talking today about how to master sales, persuasion, and influence. So key, so amazing. We’ll be talking about the differences between features and benefits selling, and why that might not be the best way to close a sale. What are a few things you can start doing right now to increase your closing ratio, and some other incredibly important stuff on this topic? Now, who is Cole? He’s the founder of Thrive: Make Money Matter, which is an amazing conference I’ve gotten to speak at twice.

It is absolutely incredible. Cole’s an entrepreneur, an investor, and an award-winning speaker, and his vision behind creating Thrive is to change the way businesses are run forever, creating a new breed of for-purpose entrepreneurs directing profitable businesses that focus on a local or global initiative. So, we’re going to dive into this audio masterclass with Cole as soon as we get back from thanking our sponsor. Cole, say what’s up to Fire Nation, and then share something interesting about yourself that most people maybe even me, don’t know.

Cole: What’s up, Fire Nation? Long time listener, third time caller. Part of Podcaster’s Paradise.

John: Yes!

Cole: And mentee to JLD actually, the last one he had, and then he quit. So.

John: I did! I haven’t mentored anybody since.

Cole: Yeah, I was that bad. I was the last one. He said, “Retired!” From coaching. So, something about me most people don’t know, I was in a high-speed police chase in Mexico, and I got away.

John: Wow. What do you think would have happened if you didn’t get away?

Cole: I’d probably still be there.

John: Oh my God! That’s terrifying.

Cole: In jail, still there. I would not be in America.

John: Fire Nation, thankfully he is in America because Cole is going to be dropping an audio masterclass on how to master sales, persuasion, and influence. And I’m going to tell you, seeing Cole speak multiple times from stage, I’ve had him on the podcast before, he is a master at these things, and I can’t wait to chat about them with him today. But Cole, give us a teaser. What are a few things we’re going to talk about specifically?

Cole: We’re going to talk about how I believe personally, that sales is the No. 1 skill to have in business. We’re always selling something, even if it’s selling someone on working for you. And I’m going to give some very practical, very actionable steps of people increasing their closing ratio. There’s a lot of people that teach sales from like, this 10,000-foot overview, philosophical type thing, I’m going to be more of a practitioner today, and give Fire Nation some steps that they can start doing immediately upon the conclusion of this podcast.

John: Wow. That was a lesson in how to give teasers. I wish that you could literally coach all of my past guests on how to do that, because epic Fire Nation you’re obviously not going anywhere after that little spiel. Cole, I know you’re a baller. Unfortunately, not every single person knows that you’re a baller. They’re about to find out but give us your sales background. What’s the deal?

Cole: So, I’ve been selling basically my whole life. It’s funny, my mom reminded me of this story. When I was probably about eight or nine years old, as a child when you buy your parent’s Christmas presents, one parent is just paying for it for the other, right? And it was probably about eight years old I realized, “Wait a minute, this isn’t fair for my dad to give me money to buy mom presents.” And I’ll never forget, I was in Macy’s. And they were selling mistletoe. And I was like, “This crap grows in my backyard for free.” So, I climbed the tree, and I pulled out just like, 20 pounds worth of mistletoe, and I put a little red bow around it, and I went door to door and started selling it like, one bundle for $3, two for $5.

And ended up making like $200.00 in my neighborhood, right? And then, I went, and for the first time in my life, I bought my parents their Christmas presents and my sister’s. And that was when the, I guess more than even just sales, the entrepreneurial lightbulb went off in my mind that’s like, “Oh my gosh, if I want something, it takes money. And I personally can do something about that. I don’t have to ask mom and dad for money, I can go earn it.” And so, since then, I’ve been selling my whole life. I had a clothing company in high school selling t-shirts, hats and things like that. Where I actually became like, a legitimate entrepreneur, like paid taxes, hired people, had an entity, that whole thing, was my real estate investment business. I have sold hundreds of millions of dollars’ worth of real estate in the 13 years I’ve been doing that.

Now, that’s not profits, of course. That’s total volume of real estate from little houses to apartment buildings. And then in some of the other areas of my business, probably what I’ll be really referencing the most on this call is teaching from the stage. From stage alone, I’ve been on stage over 5,000 hours, and that sounds ridiculous, but we can break that down it’s actually pretty easy and have sold over $100 million from stage webinars and video sales letters. And so, what Louis Hau, a mutual friend of ours, coined when I was helping him craft his video sales letters, was he says that I have the, “Art of spoken copyright.” So, I give Louis credit for that one.

And I actually helped you, if you remember that JLD, with one of your webinars just the language you were using, is I’ve becoming with using the proper words to move the needle. And to not use any filler words like “um” and “uh” and any of that, and to really get the sales language down. And that works from not just selling on the stage in some cases a $50,000.00 program I’m selling from stage, that works from selling my daughter to just get dressed in the morning. My five-year-old, like me, and like you, does not like wearing clothes. And it is quite the sale and negotiation to get her ready in the morning. So, these are skillsets that work in business that you can monetize and just in your personal life of getting people to take action in what you want them to do.

John: Not only have I not forgotten the advice you gave me for my webinars, it’s still in place. It’s made me if not hundreds, at least tens of thousands of dollars. In fact, I can say it’s made me hundreds of thousands of dollars at least, because I used that language in a recent talk I gave at Lisa Sasevich’s event where I sold over $108,000.00 from stage worth of my Podcaster’s Paradise products. So, absolutely, Fire Nation you need to focus on the words that you are using. And Cole, I want to thank you, by the way, for something you’re not going to even know what I’m talking about until I get to it because I have so many people say,

“John, I wish that I could have your guests on 2x speed, because most of them talk pretty slow, but you on 1x speed. Because if I have the whole podcast on 2x speed, then I can’t understand you, but then the guest is talking at a normal speed. But then if I have you on 1x, then your guest just feels like they talk to slow.” I have no doubt that everybody right now has us on 1x speed. Because you and I, we just don’t use filler words.

We just speak, and we speak with passion, with excitement. So, thank you for your high pace of talk, which I think everybody is going to be happy to keep it at 1x for this episode. And that’s awesome.

Cole: I do it for the people bro, I do it for the people. But once I get excited, you might actually want to tone it down to like, .75 just so you all know, because gonna be flyin’ through this stuff.

John: We gonna be flyin’. And specifically, the first topic we gonna be flyin' through is the difference between persuasion and influence. Because there is a marked difference between those two things. So, Cole, break that down.

Cole: So, a lot of people in selling are trying to kind of beat their client or future customer, whoever it is, right down even to daughter to get dressed. And a lot of people use like, threaten type language, where you have to do this, or you must do this, or if you don’t do this, these bad things will happen. And they’re attempting to go to fear of loss and work in the cognitive bias which we’ll talk about in a bit, but the natural response of a person who don’t yet have rapport that you’re yelling – not necessarily yelling volume – but you’re like, “You have to buy Podcaster’s Paradise, or your podcast will suck!” Right? That’s what’s called threatening language.

And that’s what people use to try to use persuasion to get somebody to be like, “Well I don’t want my podcast to suck, so okay fine, I’ll buy your program.” But, our natural response as human beings is to put up defense walls. Is “Wow” – and I shouldn’t use you as a bad example here, because you don’t talk like that. But, if someone has something for sale, and they’re like, “You have to buy this, and you better do this, and if you don’t, these bad things will happen, you better buy my software your emails won’t get opened and you’ll have a bad bounce rate.” All that type of talk is so common. And I’m not going to call out names.

But, some of the most iconic people who sell like crazy online, we own their software we’ve bought their programs, are terrible at this. And it makes me feel so bad for them because they could have such better conversions if they just cleaned up their language. So, persuasion is forceful. Influence is more like gravity. It’s pulling. And so, persuading again was like forcing, or trying to impose what you want to happen onto someone. Where influencing them is allowing them to come to the decision on their own that they want to do business with you.

And we’ll get into that in this talk of the different language and phrase-ology that you can use to do that, because instead of telling people what they have to do, I’m going to recommend to people what they’re going to want to do. And then they on their own will come to the conclusion, “You know what? I do want to participate in Podcaster’s Paradise, I do want that community, I do want the resources.” And by the way, I’m dead serious, I’m a member of that, I’m using my Hau PR40 that JLD told me to buy on the boom that JLD told me to buy with the scree that JLD told me to buy. So, with the recording software, in case your end fails, that JLD told me to buy.

So, the point is, I’m talking about Podcaster’s Paradise because I’m a part of it, right? But that said, I decided on my own that I wanted to participate, you didn’t force it down my throat. And I see a lot of sales people who want that sale from, let’s be honest, sales people it’s almost a sport. Even if we don’t necessarily need the money because we’re doing fine financially, to get the close, to get the sale is that endorphin release that we all love. But people have what I call “commission breath” and they just sit there and again, harass their client, customer or whoever, audience, to buy their stuff, and you shouldn’t do that. You should lead your audience through influence to want to buy what it is you’re selling.

John: Okay, there’s so much stuff here Fire Nation. No. 1, I wat you to just remember what Cole is saying about persuasion. Persuasion is forcing. It’s imposing. And.by the way, commission breath, that is hysterical. I’m going to use that, give you credit twice, Cole, but then it’s mine forever, because that’s awesome. I love it.

Cole: You got it.

John: And then influence is showing them what they want to do, allowing them to get there on their own. So, Cole, putting you on the spot real quick here, I mean you gave a couple of Paradise examples. Go anywhere with this you want. But, give us an example of somebody that you’ve seen do influencing in a really good way. Or just a specific phrase or words that you’ve seen people use that you really think work well here.

Cole: Yeah, I’ll do that. I’ll go with B, so I can give people tangible ¬– so, what almost everybody tells people is what they have to do. “Yo, JLD, you have to buy this. If you want to have better healthcare, you have to buy this. If you want to have better peace of mind you need to buy this insurance.” I mean, fill in the blank. People are always telling everyone what they have to do. And to change commanding words like, “Have to, must,” things like that, to desire words like, “Want to, and love,” you’re going to get a better emotional response. Now, again guys, there are people like me that will buy anything.

Quite honestly, people in sales are the worst to sell, because we just want to buy stuff. So, you could probably suck, and I’ll buy stuff. The point is, you might look at your sales numbers and say, “You know what, Cole? I always tell people what they have to do, and it works for me.” But what if you could get a five to 10 percent increase? I’m not saying that this is going to triple your income. But a five to 10 percent increase across your year or even career if you’re in JLD’s case could be millions of dollars.

John: Yeah.

Cole: This is definitely worth using. So, here’s an example. Instead of saying, “You have to buy this or else,” you’re going to say this instead. You’re going to say, “You’re going to want to buy this because you’re going to love the results.” Whatever those results are, again, I’m being broad so that people can fill in the blanks. But let’s just say Podcaster’s Paradise for a second. “You have to buy this because there’s a lot of people with podcasts out there, so you must know the secrets that I’ve learned in my career of running a multiple seven figure business for the last decade.” Or whatever it is, right?

John: Ew.

Cole: That’s what most people would say, and it might sound okay. But instead, here’s what I would recommend using. Switching those out for what are called desire words instead of forcing and persuading them to buy, influence them and say, “Hey, you know what? You’re going to love investing in Podcaster’s Paradise, because you’re going to want to get the roadmap that I’ve walked personally to know what to do, and not to do, because the results in your life are going to be awesome.” And all I just did was just use what are called desire words in place of threaten or persuasive words, and people start to play that movie in their mind. And so, it’s just, again, it’s never forceful, “You have to, or you must.”

It’s, “You’re going to want to because when you do you’re going to love the result.” And there’s probably 20 different desire words that I use on the regular, you know, “Want, enjoy, love,” all positives as a result to the action of them wanting or desiring to do it. And so that right there, again, it’s the cognitive bias, right? There’s just something in the back of someone’s mind if you’re being too forceful that they just might not be able to put their finger on it, but they “something rubbed them wrong.” However, if you’re using desire words, you’re speaking to a different cognitive bias, and we’ll get into that in a minute, which it makes them motivated to want to move forward.

John: Dang it Cole, you did it again, brother. You’ve just improved my Podcaster’s Paradise masterclass. I’ve already been feverishly taking notes, and Fire Nation, these are the types of words, feelings, emotions that you want your listeners, viewers to be having when they’re consuming your content.

Cole: Boom, see? You just did it, bro. you just did it right there.

John: I was hoping that was going to slide through, but Cole called it out! Fire Nation, I’m going to be doing this throughout the rest of this interview because it’s just the way to operate. So, Cole, features and benefits selling. What the heck is that?

Cole: So, this is where another thing, I guess we’re going to start with the negative, and then we’ll get to the positive. This is another thing that I see people do that is, features and benefits selling is important only if you’re selling the features and benefits that people want to buy. And so, I see a lot of people have a great potential buyer in front of them, and they talk them out of the sale because they’re doing features and benefits selling to features ad benefits that don’t matter to them. JLD, let’s just pretend we’re both at a car dealership in Puerto Rico, wearing our flip flops, not wearing shirts, because why would you? And we’re standing next to a nice, new car.

And you realize, “You know what? It’s time for an upgrade. I’m making oodles of cash, I’m saving on taxes by being here, I want to treat myself to a new car.” And I’m at the dealership and I’m selling you on buying this car. And I’m like, “Dude, it has the best heater you’ve ever seen. This car gets smoking hot, real quick. Also, it has three different temperature settings heated seats. And, you’re never going to believe this, it has the winter package on it, so the engine block stays warm even if you’re not driving it, so that when you start your car, it’s instant heat, and you don’t have to drive around waiting for it. It’s $50,000.00, are you ready buy it?” You’re going to be like, “Dude, it’s Puerto Rico, I don’t ever need a heater, I don’t ever need heated seats, I certainly don’t need freakin’, an engine block warmer to keep my engine warm, I’m paying for stuff I don’t need.”

Now, at the same time that same exact car is a convertible, let’s just say that it has great air conditioning, and let’s just say that you and Kate are thinking about young ones in the future, and it has some of the best safety ratings. Those are the features and benefits I’m going to want to focus on. Even if it has all the heated stuff, in Puerto Rico, that’s not going to matter to you. And so, what I see people do is they sell their favorite features and benefits, but they might not be your buyer’s favorite features and benefits. And so, don’t just jump the gun of going down this list of features and benefits.

Again, I used a car as an analogy, but we can do that with any program, right? I might already own all my audio equipment, and then JLD is telling me how if I buy Podcaster’s Paradise, he’s going to show me what audio equipment to buy. Cool, but I could be like, “No, I already spent $5,000.00 on this stuff, I don’t need it.” Versus what I really want is a community. And if he had focused on the community and how support each other within that community, and all of the interaction, and subscribership to each other’s podcasts to support the community, that’s what I might have wanted. He might not have even brought that up, I might not even know there is a community. He could lose what would have been a lay down sale because he’s pitching me on how he’s going to buy audio equipment, right? I keep using you, JLD, but you’re a big boy, you can take it.

John: I can take it.

Cole: So, yeah. And so, that’s features and benefits selling. It’s where you just go down the list of what your product does, and these again, great features and benefits. But if it’s not the DBP, what we call a dominant buying motive of your person, your client, your customer, whoever that you’re having this conversation with, you could inadvertently talk them out of a sale. Because if I sat there and talked to you about all the heating features of this car, you’re going to feel like you’re overpaying. Because you’re going to be like, “You know what? Maybe there’s a car that’s cheaper that doesn’t have all that stuff, because I don’t need it.” And I’m going to talk you out of the sale because I focused on what I thought are cool features and benefits that weren’t what are your dominant buying motives.

And so, I see a lot of people do this. They do the features and benefits selling, and again, without having first done what we’ll talk about in a little bit of asking proper questions, et cetera, to find that dominant buying motive, you could quite frankly talk a lay down buyer, someone that would have thrown money at you, out of a sale because they feel that they’re overpaying for the features and benefits you’re going through that don’t actually interest them, or appeal to them.

John: I mean, Fire Nation, think how you can just shift that conversation, like what if that car deal here in Puerto Rico had walked up to me and said, “Hey, how’s it going there, JLD? What exactly are you looking for today?” And then I was to say, “Well, there’s a lot of potholes in Puerto Rico, so I definitely know that I need a car that’s at least 12 inches off, and yadda, yadda, yadda, and yeah, maybe we are thinking of expanding our family sometime in the future, so that’s kind of cool too.” And then once that person knows what I’m looking for, he can tailor his entire chat with me to just what the features and benefits are in the different cars that I want without making me think, “Well, why am I paying for all this extra crap that I don’t even need?”

So, just that one simple conversation, and having that one on one engagement with your perfect customer or client avatar can have so much benefit for you long term, that it’s going to simply blow your mind. That one thing shifts everything. Now, Cole has some value bombs that are coming as soon as we get back from thanking our sponsor. So, Fire Nation, stay right there. Fire Nation, I’m here with Ian Siegel, the CEO of ZipRecruiter, and Ian, with the unemployment rate below four percent, it is critical that employers do everything they can to attract the best talent. So, can you share some tips that employers need to be aware of?

Ian: I think the No. 1 thing that you as an employer need to be thoughtful about when you’re writing a job description is you’re not just describing what you need from the candidates, you are also selling the candidate on what it’s going to be like to work at your company. So, don’t just say, “Here’s what I need from you.” Say, “Here’s what I need from you, but wait, here’s what I’m going to provide for you in the way of an environment. We are a dog-friendly office. We’re close to shops and restaurants. We promote from within. We have awesome benefits. We do happy hours every Friday night.” Whatever your perk is, whatever makes you special, whatever makes your office special, those are the things you want to put into your job description, because remember, you’re not just trying to tell them what you need from them, you’re trying to woo them into coming to work for you.

John: Fire Nation, I hope you were taking notes there, because it’s job seeker’s market. And job seeker expectations, they are high. And as entrepreneurs, we need to be creative, and we have to consider the benefits that will set us apart from our competitors. That has to be considered. I mean, I know if I had a dog, and I was looking for a job, and that job touted the fact that they were dog friendly, that would be a huge plus. And when it’s time to find the right talent, Fire Nation, there’s ZipRecruiter. So, Cole, we’re back. And man, those value bombs you dropped in the first half of this interview were amazing. And we got nothing but greatness coming up as we continue going forward. So, talk to Fire Nation about a few things that we can start doing right now to increase our closing ratios.

Cole: So, let’s just piggy-back on what we just finished talking about, of asking great questions. Those are what are called discovery questions. And so, if you’re at the gym or jogging right now, write that down when you get home. If you’re in a place you can, write that down. Because discovery questions are how you should start every conversation. Again, you’re going to use desire words, and the things we spoke of earlier. But, I don’t start selling anybody unless I know why they’re in front of me. And so, they’re called discovery questions, and that’s what helps you find a DBM, that stands for dominant buying motive.

And again, by asking JLD these questions, I’m going to be like, “Okay, he’s concerned about the potholes. So, this car over here that’s a low rider on thin tires, on huge 24-inch rims, probably wouldn’t be a good idea for him. Maybe this SUV, Kate is talking about expanding the family.” So, I would be listening to what he is saying to find his dominant buying motive. So, it think that that’s No. 1 of how to increase closing ratios is to learn your customer before you just start rattling off random features and benefits. And one thing I want to point out, I don’t think this came across this way with what we’re saying here, but this is nothing unethical. It’s not like you’re hiding something in the car. You’re just focusing the conversation around what most excites your buyer.

And again, I don’t assume everyone here sells cars, but of the various things that your product or service provides to your clientele, you’re just focusing your conversation around the ones that are most interesting. You’re not hiding stuff like you’re being some swindler, right? So, we probably should have started this conversation off by saying, “Only sell things you believe in, that you can sell with integrity and be proud of, obviously.” Right? I assume anyone listening to you already knows that.

John: Totally.

Cole: So anyway, that’s what I would say is ask great discovery questions. Another thing that I’ve kind of talked about a bit in this conversation so far is understanding that sales is all about psychology. A lot of people don’t’ really get it. But psychology and sales are so intertwined. And if I was sitting in front of a psychologist, and I had some anxiety, or some depression, or whatever would motivate us to go and have therapy, hour at a time or whatever it is with a professional, what that other person is doing is they’re listening to everything we’re saying, and they’re trying to find what it is that we’re struggling with, and where it came from, right?

So, my mom is a mental health professional, she’s been doing this for years. And so, I know somewhat of the industry. And if you were sitting in front of me, and you were struggling, or if it’s a relationship where a husband and wife, or couple, are struggling, they’re going to ask great questions to figure out what’s going on inside of your head to then help you either A.) overcome it, or B.) if needed, add medicine if there’s something maybe chemically going off, right? The same exact thing is true of sales. I need to know the psychology of my buyer to be able to prescribe in this case, the product that they’re going to want to buy. And so, there’s a great resource out there. I’m not affiliated with them, and I obviously know that you’re not either.

But a great resource to learn these 25 cognitive biases is just go to 25cognitivebiases.com, I’m sure you’ll throw that in the show notes there, John. And it breaks these down. I would study those. Before you sell anyone else, take an afternoon, go to that website, and read it. Or you can buy different books. I’ve read the books, too. And understanding the optimism bias, right? Which is one of the number one sales killers out there. The optimism bias is something like this. “Hey man, you shouldn’t smoke anymore because smoking kills.” And the person knows that, and they’re like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that. But, it’s not going to happen to me. I know that, and I’ve heard about lung cancer obviously, I’m very aware of it, and the tobacco companies, I understand all that. But not me.”

“I’ve smoked two packs a day since I was born, I’m sixty years old, I’m fine.” And so, what that does, again we’re not selling cigarettes, but that optimism bias can kill sales because the person who you’re selling can be like, “Yeah, you know, I see how your product or service can help me, but I’m good how I am.” And so, if you understand how that works, you can do what’s called objection blocking before you get there of overcoming what these cognitive biases, or however you pluralize bias – I’m not an English major, right? But, I know what I’m talking about. So, it can help you understand the psychology that we as human beings share. Now, some of us elicit more than others in certain areas, right? Like, my optimism bias, I could be talked into anything. So, if I have that optimism bias where I’m like, “Yeah, I think I’m good.”

You can probably very easily objection block that and show me how I could be better, because I like you John, am a high performer and I always want the best, right? And so, I’m the guy that has an iPhone that works fine, but the new one comes out, I’m the idiot that stands in line for two hours because I want the best. I’m that guy. I’m sorry. Or now, I send somebody for me, right? But point is, the optimism bias isn’t going to hurt me. Or I guess, it wouldn’t impact me hurting you selling me something. But for others, it might.

So, that’s a great place to start is understand there’s a tremendous amount of psychology that goes into selling, and you shouldn’t go and get your psychology degree, but if you read what’s available online, and listen to various podcasts like this, and go to that website I recommended, and read these books, it’s going to be tremendously helpful to understand what’s going on in the brains of the people. And then like the psychologist analogy I used earlier, now as you’re talking to people, you’ll start to see them. Once you understand them, as you’re talking to someone you’ll start to see them presenting. And so how does a psychologist in front of a person who’s struggling in their personal life realize, “Okay, I’m seeing underlying tones of anxiety, and a lot of depression.”

Because they’re asking questions, and because they went and got their license and they understand this stuff, so they see these things presenting in their clients to know how to help their clients get through it. If you study those biases as a sales person, you can start to see those present in your customer. And as a psychologist would then prescribe meds or whatever, you can then navigate the conversation around those. So, this is deep stuff, but I know that your audience is next level, and they can handle this. Right? I’m not here to talk about superficial stuff, I wat to get into the meat and potatoes. And so, I would say one of the No. 1 factors to answer your question, JLD of what has helped me increase my closing ratios is learning over the years – by the way, this isn’t something you learn in an afternoon and you’re a gangster tomorrow.

This is a work in progress for years. And since there are 25, maybe master three or four at a time over the course of the next year or two to where you can recite the 25 right off the top of your head, and you can start to see those presenting in your customers, clients, whatever, okay? So that’s a big one. Again, we already talked about discovery questions. Another one that’s obvious, but I think is underutilized, is build rapport. One of the reasons I think, John, that you do well in business, and that you consistently crush your income is you’re very likeable. Just your personality, your tonality, and the way that you talk to your friends, family, and future customers, you’re easily likeable. Some of us aren’t as easily likeable, and we have to earn that trust and rapport.

And so, one of the No. 1 things I see people do wrong is they flaunt success and wealth, because they believe – and to a degree it’s true – that by showing you “How much money I have, and how successful I am,” you’re going to want to buy from me, because if I’m successful and you buy from me, you will be too.” And to a degree, credibility is important, of course. So, sharing some of your successes with them in moderation is important to create that credibility. However, when I see people just flaunting and showing their mansions, and their freakin’ super cars, and wearing $50,000.00 Rolexes on stage, and $5,000.00 Armani suits, you no longer have rapport with your audience because they can’t even relate to you anymore, they’re like, “Yeah, well that works for that guy, but he’s superhuman.” And so, it’s so important to come down to their level.

While still having posture, I’m not saying that you’re necessarily an equal, because you want to maintain posture if you have what they want, you’ve got to have that posture. But, looking just like them. And this is one of the things I helped Louis Hau with the most when he launched his legacy course, I helped him write all of that copy, was he is a New York Times best-selling author. And JLD, again, most people don’t make $100,000.00 in a year, and you’re making hundreds of thousands a month. So, it’s very easy for people to not be able to build rapport with you because you’re superhuman, you’re a freak of nature that sits around not wearing a shirt and pumps out millions of dollars, right? From his computer, staring at the ocean. I mean, how does the beach look today, is it nice?

John: The Caribbean is sparkling right now.

Cole: While most people are sitting in a cubicle looking at a picture of a Caribbean saving up for years to be able to come and visit for a few days. And so, having that credibility is important. But making your person, again customer, client, whoever it is, feel like, “Oh my gosh, I’m just like JLD was when he was doing commercial real estate, commuting to a job he didn’t like, wearing a suit he didn’t want to wear, in a career he didn’t want to work at, working for a boss he wanted to punch in the face, I’m just like him.

And I can see that defining moment in John’s life where he made the decision to quit against all odds, and pursue his dream, and has now become a multimillionaire and one of the most successful – not just podcasts, but media outlets ¬– in the world, I can see myself in his shoes, and I can see myself making that same decision. You know what? I’ve got to buy Podcaster’s Paradise, because I want to have a similar story myself.” And so, again, it’s important to have that credibility, but when I see these people – and it might even be a degree of insecurity.

I used to do that, just so everyone knows, this is something I had to work the hardest on. Because I got started in business at 21years old investing in real estate. Everyone I was working with was 40 or older. They were twice, or three times my age. And so, I overcompensated and even came across arrogant talking about my success, because I’m like, “Yeah, yeah, I’m 21, but I make more money every month than you make every…” I mean, I wouldn’t’ say that, that’s just being a jerk, but you get the point, right? I was so overly compensating my insecurities by flaunting my brief successes that I came across as just this little arrogant a-hole. And being coached, and having people speak wisdom into my life who I give permission to shoot straight, kind of hurt my feelings.

They’re like, “Cole, I know you in your personal life, and then put a microphone onto your cheek and put you on stage, you’re a total douchebag. Stop it.” And I had to really set aside the ego, and look at that be like, “Oh my gosh, I’m really not that arrogant. It’s because I feel insecure on stage that I have all these people judging me like, ‘Psh, what’s this 20-something-year-old…’” – now again, this is early in my career, I’m in my 30’s now – “’But what does this guy know, and what’s he going to teach me?’” And so, I over compensated by flaunting my success. And what it did was it cost me, because then I looked like a prodigy kid, like, “Holy crap, this kid is mega successful, and he’s 22, 23 or whatever it was. So, that’s why he’s had his success is because he’s special.”

And you know this, John, most people out there are way smarter than I am. And so, point is, find that balance, and be honest with yourself if you guys are listening to this, of over doing success, quotes, and income statements, and all that. When I say income statements, I’m not talking about like, monthly reports like you do, John, I think that transparency is important. I’m talking like, “Psh, I make seven figures a year every year in my sleep,” like those type of verbal statements of how much income you make are only going to cost you sales. So, it’s a line of a degree of credibility without becoming arrogant if that makes sense. And so, the point though, is to learn how to build rapport.

And so, there are a lot of rapport building skillsets, and we can go deeper into that if you want JLD. But, what I see a lot of people doing wrong is they lose rapport with their audience by being overly flaunting of their success. And what you want to do is you want your buyer to see themselves in your shoes to want to make the same decision you made. Now, that might really be specific to Podcaster’s Paradise, but anything, guys. If you’re selling insurance, or if you’re selling cars, or whatever, you’re going to want to build rapport so that person KLT’s you, right? Knows, likes, and – what is it, JLD?

John: Trust!

Cole: Trust, yeah, KLT. And the only way to get KLT, know, like, and trust you, is by building rapport. And one of the ways I see people blowing that on stage and on webinars, and on video sales letters specifically, is in the attempt of gaining credibility, they overshoot it, and lose their audience because people like, “Psh, this guy’s a freak of nature, I can’t do what they do.” So, build rapport. That’s another thing to help increase closing ratios.

John: Wow. I mean, there’s so much stuff in that little rant right there, Fire Nation. I want to go over some of what I think are the key takeaways. No. 1, those discovery questions. They need to start every single conversation. Why? Because you have to find the DBM. That dominant buying motive. If you don’t have the DBM, you’re not going to get anywhere. And sales is all about psychology. So, I actually love that book you recommended. And it is, Fire Nation, for your reference, The 25 Cognitive Biases: Uncovering the Myth of Rational Thinking. And the author’s name is Charles Holm, and it’s only $3.00 on Kindle, so get over there, invest $3.00 in yourself.

Read that book, The 25 Cognitive Biases. And Fire Nation, just to emphasize the last thing that Cole was chatting about, building rapport, people need to know, like, and trust you. If they’re going to invest in your opportunity, that know, like, and trust has to be there. Period. And something that Cole was talking about that I really, really believe in is that you have to balance the ordinary and the extraordinary. If you’re just ordinary, people are going to be like, “Oh, okay I relate to that person, but it’s not really inspiring.” If you’re just extraordinary, they’re like, “Wow, that’s impressive, but I can’t relate to that, I can never be there.” You have to connect on both levels. Being ordinary, so they can connect with you, like Cole was talking about when I was in commercial real estate and hating my life, et cetera.

And then extraordinary, where now I live in Puerto Rico, and I’m living the island life, et cetera, et cetera. So, it’s the combination of the both, you have to balance – one or the other won’t work. And one thing that Fire Nation loves Cole, they absolutely love this, ninja tactics. So, share some of those specific ninja tactics. For instance, we mentioned building rapport. You might have some deeper things on that, that you’ve actually picked up along the way.

Cole: Totally, I’m gonna go there. But I’m gonna ask you to do your audience a favor. I don’t know if the video is still out there, John, that you made where it tells your story? It used to be what loaded at the top of your website.

John: Yeah, now its EOFIre.com/about, and it’s right at the top of my “About Me” page.

Cole: So, go and check that out. Because John’s lived the hero’s journey. And again, I think – you’ve earned your success, but I think one of the key factors of why people KLT you so quickly is like, here’s a man, served our country, officer in the Army, gets out enters civilian life, pursues his career, has his degree, it’s just so, so the American story. And then, gets to that point of, “Am I going to do this for the rest of my life, or not?” And I think that was a really well done – I think it’s five minutes or less video, I watched it a bunch. I actually tried to rip it off and recreate it myself.

John: You should!

Cole: But my story is nowhere near as cool as yours, so I just killed the project. But, I watched it a bunch, and that’s what’s so cool. So, yes, John’s making millions of dollars a year now, and just gets to stare at the Caribbean all day every day. But, because you know his backstory of having served our country, and then corporate America, and then commuting to work saying, “There’s got to be more,” and then saying, “I’m over it, I quit,” and then boom! Pioneering, becoming the first seven day a week podcast, and that whole story – and as you guys can tell, I know thing or two about this guy.

John: We’re friends.

Cole: A bit of a bromance going on here. Also, if you want to win him over, bring him a bottle of Johnny Walker Blue.

John: I’ve actually upgraded now. So, Johnny Walker Blue is actually still high on my list – and by upgrade, I don’t mean price wise – but Oban 14, have you had one of those in a while?

Cole: No, I don’t think I’ve ever had one.

John: Okay, have one, take a picture of it when you’re doing it, send it to me, I want to know your feedback. I love it.

Cole: Cool. So, point is, Fire Nation, go to that website, what was it, EOFire.com/about?

John: Yes.

Cole: Yeah. And watch that video. Because that is what you, in your own specific details, want to communicate to your audience to get that rapport. You asked for a ninja tip on rapport. I’ll give you one more this isn’t mine, this is an oldy, but a goody. Some people have heard it, some people haven’t. So, I’m going to ask you, John. Do you know the acronym FORD? F-O-R-D?

John: No.

Cole: Perfect! Then I’m gonna teach you.

John: Yes!

Cole: So, this isn’t my content. And I don’t even remember where I learned – actually, you know what? I think the first person that ever taught this to me was a fire chief. My previous career before being an entrepreneur was a fire fighter. And I had a friend that was a chief that was teaching me how to do interviews to get my fire department job, and he taught me this acronym, FORD, and how to interview well on my oral interviews. And so, credit to him, and whoever invented it. But, F-O-R-D is an acronym. F stands for Family. O stands for Occupation. R stands for Recreation. And D stands for Dream.

And if you can have that conversation, in as quickly as a minute, or as long as a half an hour depending on how long you have with someone, like for me in my oral interviews for fire fighter I had an hour. That’s how you find commonality and build rapport. So, F is family, ask them about their family. Do you know the fastest way to get someone to like you? Get them to talk about themselves. If I’m in a conversation, and at the end of that conversation they’ve said 10,000 words, and I’ve said 100? They’re going to leave being like, “Man, I really like that Cole guy.”

It’s the funniest thing, back to human psychology, right? And so, family, you’ll talk to them about their family. Occupation talk to them about what they’ve done, and what they’re doing. You know, R is recreation, what do they enjoy most? Their hobbies? Right? For me, I’m a water sports enthusiast, so I’m going to talk to John about the beach, and the ocean, and surfing, and kite surfing, and whatever else he’s doing out there recreationally. And then D, dreams like, “Where are you going, man? Where are you building your business?” And at the end of going through that context or that framework, is a better word, you’re going to come out the other side of having more rapport with that person than you would have otherwise.

Now, that won’t work in a video sales letter, or speaking from stage because you’re not going to have a two-way interaction, you’re just talking to them. But, in those of you that sell one on ones, maybe over a cup of coffee at Starbucks to get them to buy a health insurance plan or whatever it is, FORD is a great framework for you to follow. Credit to the fire chief that taught me that long ago, and whoever invented it originally. Okay. More ninja skills. Okay, here we go. Another thing that is just a straight up ninja tip that most people don’t do is to do what I call “climbing a sales gradient” – or what has been taught to me for my coach – “climbing a sales gradient”. So, let’s just say that I want to get someone to buy Podcaster’s Paradise.

And let’s just keep this evergreen, because I’m sure your prices will go up and down. But let’s just say hypothetically, it’s $10,000.00 because it should be, right? So maybe you need to up your prices. But if Podcaster’s Paradise was $10,000.00, and I was JLD, and I want to market that to the world, to get them to want to drop $10,000.00 on Podcaster’s Paradise is a big jump. It’s to say, “Hey, I’m John. You should wire me $10,000.00 today and I’m going to give you this stuff.” Now, he would still get a closing ratio. And that’s what most people do, they go for the kill. But what you should do instead is get what I call climbing a sales gradient. Imagine a staircase.

And one step at a time to the top, instead of making on big leap is easier. If you’re at the bottom of let’s just say, five stairs, if you run and jump your highest, you can go from the bottom to the top, right? You can – probably most people listening to this can jump up five stairs, right? What is that, three and a half feet or so? However, it’s probably a whole lot easier, and less energy, to just go one step at a time. So, here’s what I would do if I was you, John. Trying to sell Podcaster’s Paradise for $10,000.00. And again, for the audience, put your own specifics and products and services in place. The first thing I’m going to acknowledge is that what this is, is education.

So, the first thing I’m going to do is get them to buy in, and I’m going to sell them to believe that education matters. So, I’m going to say, something along the lines of, and I’ll abbreviate, you know if I were John I’d go a lot deeper into this. But I would say, “There are a lot of people out there trying to do podcasts, most podcasts don’t get through their third episode, or a lot don’t even launch to begin with.” So, I’m going to ask them, “Why do you think it is that most people want to do a podcast but never do? Do you think it’s that they don’t believe that it’s going to work? Or is it that you believe that they don’t know what they’re doing?” And then the obvious response is, “Well no, it’s because they don’t know what they’re doing.”

And so now what I just got my audience if I’m on stage, or the person in front of me to on their own acknowledge is why podcasts don’t succeed for some is because they don’t know what they’re doing. And so, what I just used is another ninja contact, is called an AB answer, or an either-or answer, where you give them their only options. It’s multiple choice. And the obvious choice is the one you want them to take. So, for people out there that want to start a podcast that actually launched their first few episodes and then fizzle out, or that never even get around to launching, why do you think? Is it that they didn’t believe that there’s value in having a podcast?

Or they just didn’t know what they were doing? Everyone is going to answer, “Well they didn’t know what they were doing.” And then you’re going to say, “You know, I agree with you. It’s just a lack of knowledge.” And then they’re going to say, “Yeah, it was a lack of knowledge.” Boom. That’s step one, I got them to agree that having an education around podcasting is valuable. Now, maybe I start price framing, and I start talking about the various podcasts out there, and sponsorship revenue, and even without having a traditional sponsor who’s paying you, to be your own sponsor and market your own products and services on your podcast and the income opportunity there to frame why $10,000.00 is not a lot of money.

And so, I’m going to be real specific and I’m going to think this ahead of time. For you, John, you can talk about the probably at this point million-plus dollars you’ve made in your career of sponsorship revenue altogether, or the millions you’ve even documented of selling Podcaster’s Paradise, whatever it is, right? So, talk about the upside, and why relative to the upside earning potential of a podcast, $10,000.00 is not a lot of money. So, they’re going to agree to that. And I’m going to throw that exact number out there. The exact number that the investment is for whatever it is I’m selling, I’m going to get them to agree that it’s nothing. That’s a whole other ninja tip that we won’t have time on this call for that’s called a frame.

And I just framed why $10,000.00 is not a lot of money relative to the upside earning potential of what it is that they’re going to get as a return of that investment if they do the work, right? And so again, I’m going on an hour here with you, but we do these trainings across two days. So, there’s a lot here. So now, I’ve climbed two steps. I’ve gotten them to want to buy Podcaster’s Paradise for $10,000.00. No. 1, that they agree that they need education to succeed. No. 2, that $10,000.00 is not a lot of money. Now, I also probably understand that the majority of people buying this – I shouldn’t say majority, but many of the people buying this might not be in the liquid position of just writing a $10,000.00 check.

They might need to use a credit card. And for some people out there, people are credit card debt adverse because their grandmothers told them to stay out of credit card debt, right? And I completely agree with grandma when it comes to Nordstrom, or when it comes to consumer merchandise. I’m not going to walk into Best Buy and buy a TV on a credit card. I’m not going to go to Nordstrom to get new shoes on a credit card, because that’s consumer debt, that’s no good. But what I would then do, is create maybe a little training or a framework around how business debt ca be good. And I would talk about Tesla, or maybe that’s too big. Maybe I bring it down to something smaller like a car dealership in general, not a whole car brand.

And I would point out that a car dealership isn’t paying cash for the inventory, that Mercedes-Benz dealership that has 100 Mercedes-Benz’ on the lot, they did not pay cash. That dealership financed their inventory on a line of credit. Why would they be willing to go tens of millions of dollars into credit debt? Because when they sell those cars for a profit, they pay the debt off, and keep the profit. Grocery stores. Are they paying cash for all the milk, and all the eggs, and all the bread, and all the alcohol? No, they’re financing on lines of credit with their vendors, and then when they sell their products and merchandise, they pay their vendors off. And so, I’m going to create a context in the business world about how credit is normal.

And how basically only Dave Ramsay’s the person that doesn’t use credit for business, right? And how the difference between consumer debt and leveraging OPM – other people’s money – for business, is complete opposite ends of the spectrum. Because other people’s money for profits, you pay the money back and keep the rest. And I’m going to use some illustrations, like car dealerships, or grocery stores or whatever to get my audience, or the person I’m having coffee with or whatever to really be like, “Yeah, you know what? I get that. Yeah. You’re not buying shoes, you’re buying a laptop that you’re going to run your podcast off, that you’re going to make money with, and then you pay your laptop off and your credit card.

Okay, I get the difference.” So, now I’ve got them to agree to three things. No. 1, that education for a podcast to be successful matters. No. 2, that $10,000.00 relative to the income earning potential if they do the work – because you don’t want to make false income claims, right? – is relatively nothing. And then No. 3, if they don’t have the money, putting it on a credit card and making minimum payments while they ramp up their business is yes, credit card debt, but it’s no different than lines of credit that hotels and car dealerships, and grocery stores, and airlines – I’m getting on an airplane today to go to Chicago to look at some real estate that I’m buying. I highly doubt that the pilot of the American Airlines airplane I’m going to get on is out there on the tarmac shoveling out cash for the gasoline.

Cole: No.

John: American Airlines is going to have some big ass line of credit with Orange County Airport, John Wayne Airport that at the end of each month or however they do it, they pay for the gasoline they used. And so, the point is, it’s very normal to go into debt for business if the debt creates profits. Dude, I’m flying on that airplane to go to Chicago to look at real estate where I’m going to go millions of dollars into debt, we’re looking at a big commercial property out there, right? And so outside of sales, real estate’s my jam. But that being said, I’m gonna go millions of dollars into debt, why? Because the property is worth about $1 million more than I’m going to pay for it, and it’s going to cash flow me $7,000.00 a month beyond its expenses.

So, I’m going to walk into an $84,000.00 a year passive income opportunity, and have a net worth increase of over $1 million dollars by going a few million dollars into debt. So, I think I’ve labored this enough, you get the point. And then now, I’m going to make them the offer of wanting to get the education for relatively no money at all compared to what they’re going to make. And using a credit care if necessary, because they understand the difference between good debt and bad debt. “Are you ready to move forward with Podcaster’s Paradise?” And they’re going to say, “Yes.” And so, that’s what’s called climbing the gradient. Don’t just be like, “Yo, I’m JLD, you’re lucky that you’re even getting my attention, it’s 10 G’s, you’re welcome, here’s my PayPal, or here’s my Stripe. Swipe your card, see ya on the other side.”

Which, that’s a little ridiculous, that’s kind of a caricature of what I literally see people’s video sales letters, that it’s just the arrogance. “Hey, if you want to live in the Caribbean like me, and fly in private jets, swipe that 10 G’s, I’m going to show you how.” It’s not cool. Climb that sales gradient. And that might be the biggest ninja tip I can give your audience in the hour that we have.

John: I love it.

Cole: Again, this is why we teach this for two days, right? And so, that being said, that’s the sales gradient, and I think that that’s one of the biggest things people can learn is to get these little miniature buy-ins. Okay, they’ve bought in, they want education. Okay, they’ve bought in that 10 G’s is not a lot of money relative – by the way, 10 G’s is a lot of money to lose gambling. I do well for myself financially, I’m going to be in Vegas on Monday, so I fly from Chicago to Vegas. If I put $10,000.00 on red, and rolled and it came up black? I would be nauseous. I would literally be sick to my stomach, because I’d feel like such an idiot. However, $10,000.00 to learn how to make six figures? Or even multiple five figures, or in your case, multiple seven figures is freaking nothing. So, it’s all relative.

So, $10,000.00 not a lot of money. And then credit card, because I’m an individual, and I’m not freakin’ a hotel, credit card debt is what I have available to me, boom. I’m gonna go $10,000.00 into credit card debt, launch my podcast, monetize my podcast, pay the credit card off, and have funded my business using other people’s money, and let the profit of my business pay those people back. Boom. Done. Game over.

John: Fire Nation, I really hope that you can see why I changed Entrepreneurs on Fire to an audio masterclass, because this is gold. This is the kind of stuff I wanted to brig to you on these longer form podcasts. So, awesome stuff. And just real quick, because it’s been a little while since you’ve heard Cole when he started at the beginning, but that acronym was gold. FORD. Family, occupation, recreation, dream. And then of course, going all the way through that sales gradient. Incredible stuff. And Cole, you and I could talk about this stuff forever, but right now I want to shift this conversation for the final few minutes that we have.

I really want to talk about something that I am just to this day, continuously more and more impressed with is this movement that you’ve started around your conference Thrive. I’ve been able, and honored, to speak twice at Thrive now with the likes of Gary V, Robert Herjavec, and just the list is unbelievable how many incredible speakers you’ve had there, and just human beings in general. And this coming September 14th to the 16th 2018, Fire Nation depending on when you’re listening, at the Hard Rock, Thrive is happening. So, Cole, talk about Thrive, and why you put this together, and all the stuff around it. How Fire Nation can get involved. And of course, being cognizant that we are wrapping up here.

Cole: Just real quick, I mean you already nailed it, it’s a three-day business conference. What makes us special is we teach entrepreneurs how to make money and make it matter. I made a decent amount of money, and then I lost it all in the recession. And then I’ve made it all back. And when I had nothing, I realized that while I had something, I should have done more with it. And so, I started what I call for-purpose business that don’t just make money, they make an impact. Best example would be Toms shoes. Although they’ve changed their model now, when they started, for every pair of shoes they sold, they gave a pair away.

And it wasn’t a matter of getting rich someday and giving back, they gave back in their business model as they moved forward. And so, I said, “I’m going to do that too, so that if I’m not as rich as Bill Gates to end malaria, at least while I ran my companies I made a huge impact on world.” It caught fire, people like you asked me to share it on their podcasts years ago, and I got bombarded through social media, people like, “Teach me how.” So, we did that very first inaugural event which was designed to only be a one-off that you came and spoke at and freakin’ rocked the stage –

John: Holla!

Cole: – like you always do. And like you said, Robert Herjavec and Gary V were at that first one. And it was so well received, we’ve now made it an annual event. So, this will be the fourth Thrive. We’ve got gangsters coming like Eric Thomas, hip-hop preacher himself. We’ve got Emi Lett coming out this time, Jesse Itzler, Naveen Jain. We have two different billionaires speaking at Thrive this year, right? So, it’s a big deal. And what makes it special is we’re not just teaching you how to run businesses and make a ton of money, we’re teaching how to run businesses that make a ton of money and built in their business model, give back so that on your quarterly reviews when you’re measuring those KPI’s, it’s just not, “Hey, what was our marketing spend? What was our revenue? What was our topline revenue, what was our blah-blah-blah…. And, what was our impact?”

It becomes a key metric in your business. So, I’ll leave it with that. You know, probably to learn more you can just go to attendthrive.com, and if they want to join us, we’d love to have them out this year, bro.

John: Attendthrive.com, Fire Nation. Check it out. And again, it’s all about making money matter. And I can just tell you the vibe at Cole’s conference, I’ve been to a lot of conferences. I’m not going to talk bad about any conferences, because there’s a lot of great ones out there. But the vibe at Thrive – I love how that rhymes – is just so cool. I mean, people are there because they have the right mission in mind. They want to make an impact, they want to be for-purpose, and it’s just a really great overall genuine conference that I can’t recommend enough. And I’m actually devastated that this year I’m not going to be able to make it because I’m going to be traipsing around Europe as part of my 65-day, 17 country European vacation that starts on September 11th, and doesn’t end until mid-November.

So, I just gotta say, Fire Nation, show up in my place, bring the heat, bring the fire, do your thing and make money matter. That’s attendthrive.com. And Fire Nation, you know you’re the average of the five people you spend the most time with. And you’ve been hanging out with CH and JLD today, so keep up the heat. And Cole, thank you for sharing your truth with Fire Nation today brother, for that we salute you, and we’ll catch you on the flip side.

Cole: Peace out, homie.